[PonchoV8]

Yep. NASCAR ia about revenue makers above excellence. I don't think we should kid ourselves thinking Danica doesn't fit their model. She isn't what's wrong with it.
She's a product of it.

[63Banshee]

The debate isn't whether she fits the NASCAR model, it's the model itself and her being a personification of it. She is what's wrong with what NASCAR became.

E Jr driving around with a silver spoon up his @ss was bad enough. Panica is far worse.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Danica and Dale Jr are the two most popular drivers is NASCAR. One is popular because of the last name, the other is popular because of the gender. Neither one is popular because of their driving ability.

Dale Jr. has been mediocre for the past several years, but turned it around in the past year or so. If his last name wasn't Earnhardt, he would have been replaced on the Hendrick Team years ago. He's had 3 wins in the past 7 years, with the best equipment in the garage, driving for the best team in NASCAR. Fellow teammate Kasey Kahne has had 4 wins in the past 2 years driving for Hendrick. Jimmie Johnson and Jeff Gordon have 10 championships between them, they're the talent of the Hendrick team. Yet Dale Jr. is the cash cow, just like Danica is the cash cow for Stewart-Haas.

Dale Jr. obviously has more NASCAR talent than Danica (he's had 44 Top 5 finishes since he joined Hendrick), but he can't seem to get wins. Yes, he's overrated, but he's a good driver.

Reminds me of the Chicago Cubs. Perennial losers, the worst record in the history of Major League Baseball, no World Series wins in over 100 years, yet they're the 5th most popular team as far as merchandising goes.

I have to agree with you, Mike. I actually met Dale, Sr. once. Arrogant doesn't begin to describe him, but he was a great NASCAR driver. Dale,Jr. is NOT his father in the same fashion that Kyle Petty was not King Richard nor was Dale Jarrett like Ned.

[David Holmberg]

Originally Posted by PonchoV8

Dale Jr. had the best of everything all his life....without earning any of it. The fact that he had a little success was due mostly to the machine he was born into.

Complete and udder BS!

IF you knew the true story about JR you'd know his father didn't give him anything. He worked for everything he got. He is the opposite of most of the drivers in racing, where their parents devote their lives to their kids racing.

I really like Chase Elliot, but he is a perfect example of a driver who's parent gave them every chance and opportunity to be the best they could be. (and he made the most of it) There are thousands of others just like him that don't have the same talent and won't make it beyond the local levels.

JR talked about after winning two championships in the nationwide series, he was still living in a trailer on his fathers property. He had a curfew and an allowance that barely gave him enough to go out with friends. He also said that he and Kerry had to buy every part for their race cars before hitting the Nationwide series, Dad never paid for anything. They would, on occasion sneak into Dads shop and steal parts without him knowing it.

Those of us that race have all seen Parents that start their kids in Jr Dragster, drag them all over the area racing, move them up at every age level hoping they make it big one day. Sr was oldschool and said many times, if either of them (Dale or Kerry) were going to make it in racing they would do it on their own.

What JR got from his father was the Name, and an immediate fan base. It was up to JR to keep the fans, Kerry never earned the Fans.

IMHO, the one thing that kept JR from being great was his lack of aggression on the track. He drives more like Mark Martin and not enough like his Father. Add in that he almost never blames anyone, and takes responsibility even when it was clear it wasn't his fault, makes him "worthy" in my book.

[MikeNoun]

Originally Posted by David Holmberg

Complete and udder BS!

IF you knew the true story about JR you'd know his father didn't give him anything. He worked for everything he got. He is the opposite of most of the drivers in racing, where their parents devote their lives to their kids racing.

I really like Chase Elliot, but he is a perfect example of a driver who's parent gave them every chance and opportunity to be the best they could be. (and he made the most of it) There are thousands of others just like him that don't have the same talent and won't make it beyond the local levels.

JR talked about after winning two championships in the nationwide series, he was still living in a trailer on his fathers property. He had a curfew and an allowance that barely gave him enough to go out with friends. He also said that he and Kerry had to buy every part for their race cars before hitting the Nationwide series, Dad never paid for anything. They would, on occasion sneak into Dads shop and steal parts without him knowing it.

Those of us that race have all seen Parents that start their kids in Jr Dragster, drag them all over the area racing, move them up at every age level hoping they make it big one day. Sr was oldschool and said many times, if either of them (Dale or Kerry) were going to make it in racing they would do it on their own.

What JR got from his father was the Name, and an immediate fan base. It was up to JR to keep the fans, Kerry never earned the Fans.

IMHO, the one thing that kept JR from being great was his lack of aggression on the track. He drives more like Mark Martin and not enough like his Father. Add in that he almost never blames anyone, and takes responsibility even when it was clear it wasn't his fault, makes him "worthy" in my book.

I agree David. Dale Jr didn't have an easy life.

The thing I DO love about Dale Jr is his attitude. He's not afraid to speak his mind, and he's old school.

The thing I DON'T like is that no one can touch him, either physically or out on the track, lest that person gets the wrath of his fan base. I hate it when other drivers, after a nasty wreck, are relieved they didn't hit the #88 for fear of being targeted by Twitter followers and the media, and possibly having to apologize on camera for a racing accident.

Seriously, when was the last time ANYONE had it out with Dale Jr?

Jeff Gordon, Jimmie Johnson, Matt Kenseth, every top driver has had altercations post-race with another driver. But no one ever says a word about Dale Jr when he causes a wreck. You simply can't. There's an unwritten rule called "The Dale Earnhardt Protection Act".

As for silver spoons in their mouths, that would be Joey Logano!

Chase Elliott seems like a good, and while he has a famous dad that supported him, his talent is obvious. He'll be even greater once he graduates from school and can focus on his driving career.

[PonchoV8]

Mike is correct. Jr. got everything his way, the way he wanted once he was 'ready' to be granted the royal scepter. He didn't have to earn that. I very clearly remember him whining that NASCAR was changing rules to cater to other drivers after they hyped him as the 2nd coming. He's a made man. Someone gave him that.

[David Holmberg]

Mike I agree, but you can't blame Dale for what his fan base does or says.

There have been several instances where things could have turned into something big, but Dale never seems to want to go there. He just puts it to rest and moves on. Carl Edwards coming off Pit road during a caution and intentionally hitting JR with his left arm out the window comes to mind. (4-5 years ago) I promise you had that been me there would have been a fight after the race.

I mentioned Chase because like JR he's got some big shoes to fill. I think he'll do fine, perhaps even better than his father (record wise). JR didn't live up to his father's legend, but how many could have? JR is happy being JR. Kyle Petty didn't, but I still like and respect Kyle. Best line "They could fill this place (Bristol) up with water and stock it with fish and I wouldn't get a bite".

[The Champ]

David

Thanks for bringing some truth to the topic of Jr. So many people "think" he was given everything, but that is far from true.

That's why I pointed out that he worked as a mechanic at his father's dealership while attending school.

You know it's kind of sad when people try and claim he's a "hack" of a driver when at his relatively young age he is #38 on the All Time Wins list in Cup racing. Another 6 wins and he'll climb to #25.

Just to give a reference point - there are only 182 drivers in the history of Cup racing that have won a race. There are only 124 that have won 2 races. 10 wins gets you up to 58th on the list.

And one should look at who he is competing against currently and how he stands in the win list...

Of current regular active drivers - only Jeff Gordon, Jimmy Johnson, Tony Stewart, Matt Kenseth, Kyle Busch, Kurt Busch, Kevin Harvick, Denny Hamlin and Carl Edwards have more than 20 wins.

Once again - I'm not a Jr. fan - but I feel the need to give him credit for actually being one of the better Cup drivers racing today.

Comparing him to Danica just ain't right!

[PonchoV8]

Originally Posted by The Champ

David

Thanks for bringing some truth to the topic of Jr. So many people "think" he was given everything, but that is far from true.

That's why I pointed out that he worked as a mechanic at his father's dealership while attending school.

He wasn't given everything. He was given a job in his daddy's business. He even had to stay in school?

You know it's kind of sad when people try and claim he's a "hack" of a driver when at his relatively young age he is #38 on the All Time Wins list in Cup racing. Another 6 wins and he'll climb to #25.

Let's reveal the quality of your credibility and character. Post a quote for the word you placed quotes around. "Hack".

Comparing him to Danica just ain't right!

Lying about quotes is okay though, huh?
Comparing the hype of Danica to that of Jr. is spot on. They earned none of it.

[The Champ]

Poncho

Jr. worked at his dad's dealership while earning a post secondary degree. Dale Sr. may not have graduated from HS, but he did make sure his kids did.

I don't know what your problem is with my character and credibility. Some people have posted that Jr. isn't one of the better drivers in NASCAR. I used "hack" - if you don't like that word - please feel free to substitute the word of your choice for "below average" driver.

Your comparison is wrong - no matter how hard you pretend it isn't.

Both have had some of the best equipment in NASCAR. The results of having that equipment are totally different.

Danica hasn't done anything worthy of notice in her 5 seasons in NASCAR Nationwide/Cup.

Jr. is one of the top 10 Cup drivers on the track. Before the start of his 5th season in NASCAR Nationwide/Cup, he had won 2 Championships and 13 races.

Those two Championships is what "gave "Jr. the hype when he entered Cup full time. He earned those Championships on the track.

[PonchoV8]

So, again, you quoted the word "hack" and attributed it as used by someone else. Precisely who called JR a "hack?

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by PonchoV8

So, again, you quoted the word "hack" and attributed it as used by someone else. Precisely who called JR a "hack?

Poncho

I didn't attribute "hack" to any person in particular. It was a broad sweeping statement made from comments that I have witnessed in person and on the internet for years.

If you "think" I directed that at you personally, you are mistaken.

Move on.

[PonchoV8]

He's a mediocre driver, wouldn't you say?

[MikeNoun]

Dale Jr is overrated, there's no doubt about that.

However, being overrated is NOT the fault of the individual, it's the fault of the media, and the fans. THEY are the ones that thrust perceived greatness onto an individual (Dale Jr), and that in turn puts enormous pressure on that individual to produce results. That's why Dale's head was screwed up for the past several years. He was under too much pressure to perform, and he wasn't delivering.

As I stated earlier, his record speaks for itself. 3 wins in the past 7 years, with the best equipment in the garage, driving for the best team in NASCAR. Forget about what he did 15 years ago, it's ancient history. He needs to show that he can win races with some regularity. For the past 7 years, he's been an average driver on an outstanding team.

So that's why there is a comparison between Danica and Dale Jr, two drivers with enormous pressure to perform, with the biggest fan bases, and have fallen way short of expectations.

Dale Jr DOES have a lot of driving talent in a NASCAR car.

Danica Patrick should have spent a few more years in Nationwide (maybe even ARCA) before transitioning. But money was waiting, and I blame Tony Stewart (and Dale Jr when he hired Danica for his Nationwide team) for turning NASCAR into the sideshow it's become.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Dale Jr is overrated, there's no doubt about that.

However, being overrated is NOT the fault of the individual, it's the fault of the media, and the fans. THEY are the ones that thrust perceived greatness onto an individual (Dale Jr), and that in turn puts enormous pressure on that individual to produce results. That's why Dale's head was screwed up for the past several years. He was under too much pressure to perform, and he wasn't delivering.

As I stated earlier, his record speaks for itself. 3 wins in the past 7 years, with the best equipment in the garage, driving for the best team in NASCAR. Forget about what he did 15 years ago, it's ancient history. He needs to show that he can win races with some regularity. For the past 7 years, he's been an average driver on an outstanding team.

So that's why there is a comparison between Danica and Dale Jr, two drivers with enormous pressure to perform, with the biggest fan bases, and have fallen way short of expectations.

Dale Jr DOES have a lot of driving talent in a NASCAR car.

Danica Patrick should have spent a few more years in Nationwide (maybe even ARCA) before transitioning. But money was waiting, and I blame Tony Stewart (and Dale Jr when he hired Danica for his Nationwide team) for turning NASCAR into the sideshow it's become.

A LOT of good drivers in ARCA NEVER get the chance to be promoted to the Nationwide series. A couple of guys I know come to mine.

[Held for Ransom]

Originally Posted by PonchoV8

So, again, you quoted the word "hack" and attributed it as used by someone else. Precisely who called JR a "hack?

Inferred in this '08 article...
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...ut-little-else

[David Holmberg]

Mike you know as well as I do there is more than talent and equipment to winning races, or even finishing close to the front.

Jeff Gordon went from winning everything in sight to an above average place finishing driver when he changed crew chiefs.

Same deal with Dale Sr, and many others.

You go back to the middle of last season to today and Jr is a top 3 driver. Take away a blown motor in the chase and he had a shot at the title. This year he has a win, three 2nd place finishes and 6 top 10's. His only mistake was at Texas, a track he normally does well at, he finishes 43'rd after driving into the grass, yet 10 races into the season he's still 4th in points, 19 out of first.

That said, he's losing his crew chief at the end of the year, so next year anything could happen. I think Dale puts more pressure to finish well on himself than everyone else combined.

Even the best Thoroughbred needs the right jockey to best.

Right now, IMHO, JR is a top 5/6 driver just as he finished last season. This year I suspect he'll do better but with the new ending anything can happen.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

As I stated earlier, his record speaks for itself. 3 wins in the past 7 years, with the best equipment in the garage, driving for the best team in NASCAR. Forget about what he did 15 years ago, it's ancient history. He needs to show that he can win races with some regularity. For the past 7 years, he's been an average driver on an outstanding team.

Only 3 wins in the last 7 years - so what?

He had 46 top 5's and 95 top 10's during that same period.

Last year alone - he finished 2nd 5 times.

In his entire Cup career - his average finish has only been worse than 20th 4 times. Only 1 of those times was in the last 7 years. The other 3 were in the earlier seasons when he won more often.

In 2004 - the year Dale won 6 races - his average finish was 12.1.

In 2012 - Dale only won 1 race - but his average finish was 10.9. Last year he didn't win a race and his average finish was 12.6.

That is above average driving.

[rolling money pits]

i thought i opened the danica haters thread.

seems i was mistaken and opened the jr. haters one.

lol

[MikeNoun]

Originally Posted by The Champ

Only 3 wins in the last 7 years - so what?

He had 46 top 5's and 95 top 10's during that same period.

Last year alone - he finished 2nd 5 times.

In his entire Cup career - his average finish has only been worse than 20th 4 times. Only 1 of those times was in the last 7 years. The other 3 were in the earlier seasons when he won more often.

In 2004 - the year Dale won 6 races - his average finish was 12.1.

In 2012 - Dale only won 1 race - but his average finish was 10.9. Last year he didn't win a race and his average finish was 12.6.

That is above average driving.

Champ, that's what I stated earlier. Dale's had a lot of top 5's, he's been consistent.

Consistently mediocre, considering the equipment, team, and car he's been given.

If he wasn't the most popular driver in NASCAR, Hendrick would have dumped him years ago. That's where this "Danica haters" thread and the topic of Dale Jr are connected. They're both popular, they both drive for excellent teams, they both under perform, and both are kept on their respective teams because of the $$$ they bring in. Obviously, Dale Jr is a much better NASCAR racer than Danica Patrick, but they do have a few things in common.

David, I realize that the best equipment doesn't buy you races, you have to be a great driver too. Dale Jr is driving for the best team in NASCAR history, he's the highest paid driver, the most popular driver, yet he only has those 3 wins in 7 years. He stays at Hendrick because he's Dale Earnhardt Jr, he brings in the money, he's popular.

Hence the term "he's overrated".

Kasey Kahne has 4 wins in 2 years, and he's low man on the Hendrick totem pole, with rumors that if Chase Elliott moves to Cup, he may replace Kasey, which sucks because Kasey is a better driver than Earnhardt. Kasey can drive road courses.

Example of a great driver with a subpar car? Gotta be Kurt Busch.

Furniture Row Racing was a piker 2-car team running at the back of the pack for 5 years. They brought in Regan Smith, a decent driver, who managed to get one win in 90 races, and two top 5's. Pretty dismal.

In comes bad boy Kurt Busch, and suddenly the flat black #78 car comes to life. 11 top 5 finishes in only 36 races and 16 top 10's, more than the team did in the previous 8 years COMBINED.

That's the sign of a great driver. They can take a crappy car and make it competitive with their driving skill.