[85_SS]

I'll start this off by noting that a few years ago I had problems with an intermittent hard start issue that turned out to be the ignition wire being too close to the block, resulting in the insulation burning off and causing what I believed to be a partial short when cranking:
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=678538

...I fixed that up and was careful to keep the wiring away from the block and manifold (as much as possible - it's awful tight in there). That was three years ago and not a single problem since then.

Fast forward to yesterday and I took the GTO out for only the second time this year to a local Father's Day car show. Car started fine in the morning, and I even moved it (while hot) about 10-15min after I got there. When the show was over, it started fine again and I parked in the driveway when I got home. After wiping down and parking my other car, I went to go start the GTO and it cranked well, but didn't catch (I'm think I mistakenly pumped the pedal and flooded it)... went to try again and it just died out and didn't want to turn over again. I (luckily) got out to pop the hood and let it cool off and I immeditely see a fair amount of smoke coming out from the breather where the heat riser connects. First thought was unburnt fuel from the no start (which makes no sense)... but then I barely heard some crackling and caught a whiff of burning rubber - it immediately clicked what the smoke was from and I sprinted to the garage for a couple 1/2" wrenches to disconnect the battery. I loosened the negative first and when I went to pull it off of the battery, the cable pulled right out of the connector:


Had this happened anywhere else (like at the show), the car would have been up in flames... and had I not thought to pop the hood to let it cool off, same thing. I can't believe how "lucky" I was - if this is going to happen, it couldn't have happened at a better place or time.

Here's what the positive cable looked like at the starter (before touching anything):


Here's both cables removed:


At first I was thinking the positive cable must have shorted somewhere and hopefully it's only the cables that were damaged - everything looks fine, but I won't know until I get it fired back up. The car just had a stardard aftermarket cable with no protective loom anywhere. After researching this a little further, I found that the ram air cars are supposed to have a tube (RPE629A) that mounts to the DS motor mount to keep the cable in position (I'll have to pull the motor mount to drill the mounting holes for the tube).

I already have the proper spring ring cables and battery topper that I planned to put on when I bought a new battery (the topper won't fit or look right on the Optima that's in the car now). These cables come with the protective loom and I will order the tube shortly, along with some extra loom to go over the ignition harness for extra measure. I ordered the solenoid heat sheild at the same time, but never bothered to install it as I never had any issues after correcting the partial short on the ignition wire.

That being said, I don't see any obvious signs of the cable shorting, which got me thinking that perhaps the starter itself shorted out? I plan to pull it out soon as well as I will need the room to get the motor mount out, but any suggestions on this? Does a mini starter offer much more clearance?

[Txbobcat]

You are lucky you caught it. Mine did the same thing at home after a 2 hour drive. I was able to save it as well.

[nytrainer]

a couple of years ago I had similar situation...http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=700672

[85_SS]

Starter pic:


It was definitely smoking - question is, what came first, the chicken or the egg?

Originally Posted by nytrainer

a couple of years ago I had similar situation...

Came across your thread earlier while seaching - scary situations indeed.

Originally Posted by Txbobcat

You are lucky you caught it. Mine did the same thing at home after a 2 hour drive. I was able to save it as well.

Was yours a shorted positive cable as well?

[Pepi]

Very lucky you opened the hood and found what you did when you did.

[Old Goat 67]

Originally Posted by 85_SS

Starter pic:


It was definitely smoking - question is, what came first, the chicken or the egg?

I'll bet that starter will NOT test good!
It came first.

[85_SS]

I had a chance to test it with a battery and jumper cables last night after the kids went to bed and to my surprise it actually tested fine (tested solenoid & starter motor separately, then together). I'm going to take it to a shop and have them test it as well though - perhaps they have a more comprehensive method of checking it out? I am curious if it's possible that the short occured only when it was hot (though I wouldn't expect this to "fix itself" after cooling down)?

Has anyone had a starter actually short out before? Anything is possible, but from searching here and elsewhere online, it doesn't appear to be a likely problem.

If I do end up with a new starter, it appears that the Powermaster XS Torque 9510 is popular - any other suggestions?

[stellar]

That looks like clutch dust on the starter nose not burning cable ashes. Are you sure the cable wasn't touching? That is what it looks like.

[Txbobcat]

Yes my positive cable got burnt on the exhaust manifold.

[steve v]

Glad you were able to catch the problem before a fire!

The factory RA/455 HO positive battery cables had a tab on them that fits into the notch on the solenoid insulator. That tab would index the + cable in the proper position for safe clearance from the block, manifold etc. Without that tab you need to be VERY careful when tightening the cable on the solenoid as the cable likes to rotate.

Even the reproduction spring ring battery cables that I have bought from both py & Ames do not have this needed tab or the proper bend on the solenoid end of the cable terminal. When I called the customer service # on the cable's package (Electric Unlimited?) they claim all cables they sell are built to "factory blueprints"..... wrong!

[steve v]

Here's a scan from the 70 factory manual showing the battery cable orientation for RA cars. Note the tab on the cable end.

[gtofreek]

The solenoid will not cause a short that will burn your cable. There is nothing in there to short against. The cable melted because it shorted out on the manifold, period. No need to over think it.

I suggest putting the new cable[solenoid end] in a vise and bend it 90° just above the hole. Leave enough room above the hole to get the nut on. Then position it downwards between the posts so it's not sticking up close to the block.

Also, if you wire in a Ford starter relay, you can eliminate all the wires down at the starter except for the main cable. That way, there are no hot wires down at the starter to short out, except when the engine is cranking. It also makes changing the starter much easier since you only have 1 cable to disconnect. This will also prevent any future hot start issues.

[85_SS]

I took the starter to a local auto electric shop to get their opinion and give it a once over. First off - he agreed that it was just clutch dust on the nose as stellar mentioned (funny how you can jump to conclusions when you have electrical problems on the brain).

As soon as he put it in the vice, he pointed out the bottom cover on the case was tweaked a bit - something I noticed, but didn't think much of. He spun it and immediately said it wasn't right. He loosened the bottom cover, tapped it back into place so it was flush all around, then tightened it up and tried again - it sounded better and spun faster than the first time, but he said it still wasn't right. It was enough for me not to try reinstalling it - which is how I was leaning anyways as I really don't want to take any chances.

He also recommended heavier battery cables than the 4ga that was on there, but I already have the factory style spring cables that I plan on using (which are also 4ga) for a more correct appearance (I also have a battery topper, but need to get a different battery that it will fit). On that note - are these reproduction cables copper or some alloy? They appear to be aluminum from what I can see at the crimped end that connects to the starter, but that can't be right?

I ended up ordering a Powermaster 9510 earlier today as I like the idea of being able to clock it however I want to get the cables away from the heat as well - I would have went for the RobbMc, but it's not in the budget at the moment and he unfortunately doesn't have any Pontiac on clearance right now.

Originally Posted by steve v

Here's a scan from the 70 factory manual showing the battery cable orientation for RA cars. Note the tab on the cable end.

Thanks for the diagram - I can see how that tab would make a significant difference!

[gtofreek]

I know GM in the 70's started using copper clad aluminum cables. They sucked, for the most part. Corroded easy. They were aluminum wire with a copper coating on them.

[rexs73gto]

I just last week had a similar problem with my starter. I went to a cruise in & when I went to back into the space the starter engaged & wouldn't let go. I got the hood up & someone helped me out with a pair of plyers to get the battery cable off, but it fried the battery cable. I took it home & all seemed ok but it would not start any more. It would turn over but not start. It took me 4 days to find the problem & I had to use my 73 service manual to help. The starter sol. shorted on the inside & would turn the car over but wouldn't let power go to the coil. I had just installed a new starter because my Powermaster starter went out & had been sent in so I installed a reg. starter. It took me 4 days & checking everything in the system to find why it wouldn't start, So yes a starter can cause the car not to start to. Never thought it could but it did. I'll be glad when I get my mini starter back as the reg starter is a PITA to install. The mini give so much room . With out the factory cable with the locating tab on it the reg. starter it almost impossible to put in. This must be the week for starters because I'm only 1 of 4 that I know of this week, you make 5.

[85_SS]

Just to close this out - I installed the Powermaster 9510 tonight. I should point out that while the mounting block does rotate 360 degrees, you are very limited on positioning and it will physically only fit with the terminals facing the exhaust - defeating my goal of getting the battery cables away from the heat as much as possible. For this reason alone, I'd recommend the IMI starter that our host sells as it appears to be identical, but with the connections on the block side (I couldn't find where to buy it and unfortunately the catalog description was simply "mini starter" so I had no idea what brand it was). That being said it mounted fine with no shims and cranks the engine much faster than the stocker, as expected.

[85_SS]

Decided to take apart the original starter tonight - what a mess:







I can't believe it still spun when it was bench tested afterwards...

[stellar]

Nasty. It also looks like someone else was in there before doing some 1/2 a$$ed repair work.

[gtofreek]

Bushings wore out, armature started dragging on fields, fields overheated and burned up from too much amperage draw.

[irgoatmike]

This post was an eye opener on the reason to carry a small tool kit and a fire extinguisher in our cars at all times. After all the work I've put into mine, to watch it burn would be more than sickening. Irgoatmike