[hakansan]

Originally Posted by frankyboy455

All the early Camaros and Firebirds i've seen had four screws at the bottom of the door panel but I can tell you that none of them holes are in the same place from one car to the other. That is if you want to install a door panel found on a 69 Firebird and install it on another 69 'Bird, chances are the holes won't line up.

The fact that some of them had 7 screws does not surprise me either.

The screws used where selftapping!

[FunctionalShaker]

My thinking is, if they have seven screws, the panel was bulging and a prior owner added the screws to flatten it out (got wet?)

[1RAMAIR1]

Originally Posted by FunctionalShaker

My thinking is, if they have seven screws, the panel was bulging and a prior owner added the screws to flatten it out (got wet?)

I bought a car just to get its BEAUTIFUL blue interior and the car only had 50,000 miles on it. The original door panels had seven screws on both the Driver & Passenger side. The panels are perfect and not warped. ALL of the screws are also identical to one another.

One would think there would be different looking screws if they were added at a later date. The car is so original & unmolested that it even has its Factory exhaust still on it so I doubt that anyone just decided to add Door Panel screws. They are also spaced evenly and do not look like they were added after the fact. I called Eric Budre and he said his 1969 Trans Am also had seven screws on the bottom of his Door Panels. I can't explain the variation.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 1RAMAIR1

You are correct. Factory and NOS Service replacement parts had variations in their appearance even though they functioned the same. I have also noticed some Factory features that have differences between them. Take for instance the attaching screws & holes at the bottom of the interior Door Panels. I have seen some 69 Firebirds with 4 attaching screws at the bottom and some with 7 screws. Does anyone know why there would be such a difference in the way the Door Panels were attached? The comparison vehicles were built at the same plant so it would not be an assembly variation. Does anyone have an explanation for why there are 4 hole Door Panels versus 7 hole versions?

There can be variation within the same plant.

Keep in mind there are several different operators doing the same job, even within the same day. One regular guy for first shift, one regular guy for second shift, one regular guy for third shift (for those plants running three shifts of production). If the regular guy isnt' there that day then a utility replacement operator would do the job (or the quality man). If they have "rolling relief" (ie, the line keeps going, rather than shutting down, for break) then there would be a "relief" man on the job.

So there's an example of four or five different people doing the same job in the same plant on the same day, each providing an opportunity for slight variations in the way it is done.

K

[1RAMAIR1]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

There can be variation within the same plant.

Thanks for your input! I completely agree and have talked to Assembly Line Workers (from back in the day) who have substantiated those types of variations. I guess there is no way to document a definitive difference between variables that allowed the Line Workers such latitude for various build characteristics.

I am trying to find how many other Members have similar features with their cars and if there is a contrast for how the Door Panels were attached. Were the 4 and 7 screw attachment a common difference? I have two original 69 vehicles that have the 4 & 7 screw attaching feature. Other than Eric Budre's vehicle, are there any other Members whose 1969 Firebird Door Panels are attached with 7 screws along the bottom edge?

[Bet Winner]

Originally Posted by 1RAMAIR1

While these might be small details in the overall scheme of things, it shows how History has been re-written with these cars and what is now considered to be technically correct.

Amen! As more repo parts are substituted, people lose track of what was correct.

[azbirds]

My T/A has four screws, but one interesting thing I saw was the placement. One screw on the drivers door was off to the rear slightly, and it appears to have a small depression that looks like a guide to where the screw should go, they just missed.

[maxepr]

On board here now 07A build on my T/A Auto...And Three other 69 Birds....

[comanchefirebird]

Originally Posted by 1RAMAIR1

Thanks for your input! I completely agree and have talked to Assembly Line Workers (from back in the day) who have substantiated those types of variations. I guess there is no way to document a definitive difference between variables that allowed the Line Workers such latitude for various build characteristics.

I am trying to find how many other Members have similar features with their cars and if there is a contrast for how the Door Panels were attached. Were the 4 and 7 screw attachment a common difference? I have two original 69 vehicles that have the 4 & 7 screw attaching feature. Other than Eric Budre's vehicle, are there any other Members whose 1969 Firebird Door Panels are attached with 7 screws along the bottom edge?

Hi Dave,
Checked my 06A TA, original standard interior door panels are still in place and attached by 4 screws on each door.
Steve

[1RAMAIR1]

Originally Posted by 1RAMAIR1

In another thread someone was discussing the Gas Tank and vent line for the 1969 Firebird.

Details....Details! (lol) Here are a few photos of the original rubber hose that connects the Gas Tank filler neck line to the tube that is routed in of the Trunk. Inside of the Hose there is a metal insert that allows the Hose to retain in its "U" shape configuration. After CAREFULLY removing 45 years of grime and preserving the original white lettering, here is what the Hose looks like.

[north]

I've always been more of a "saver" than a restorer so this thread is great. The best cars are untouched originals but there are so few and less and less all the time so making an effort to do truly "correct" resto is a great idea. Hell of a challenge though to know where to draw the line!!

An example of where to draw the line is my rear speakers (factory 8 track convertible so it has two speakers mounted in the top well)... I removed them in their cardboard housings to redo the speakers themselves and noticed a few "quality" issues from the assembly line...

as you can see the speaker was mounted into a cardboard housing that was screwed into the divider panel between the trunk area and the back seat. Then the top well liner would be dropped in... the area in front of the speakers was cut out... and the speaker mesh-gard would be screwed in securing the liner in place.

However on this car they only used two of four screws and they didn't bother cutting out the well liner, which was rubberized!! so I can just imagine how weak those speakers sounded.

[GoatandBirdCollector]

Originally Posted by north

I've always been more of a "saver" than a restorer so this thread is great. The best cars are untouched originals but there are so few and less and less all the time so making an effort to do truly "correct" resto is a great idea. Hell of a challenge though to know where to draw the line!!

An example of where to draw the line is my rear speakers (factory 8 track convertible so it has two speakers mounted in the top well)... I removed them in their cardboard housings to redo the speakers themselves and noticed a few "quality" issues from the assembly line...

as you can see the speaker was mounted into a cardboard housing that was screwed into the divider panel between the trunk area and the back seat. Then the top well liner would be dropped in... the area in front of the speakers was cut out... and the speaker mesh-gard would be screwed in securing the liner in place.

However on this car they only used two of four screws and they didn't bother cutting out the well liner, which was rubberized!! so I can just imagine how weak those speakers sounded.

That's so if the top's down & it rains you won't ruin the speakers?!
Wow, I guess that was a Monday install.
Anyway, thanks for the tank venting info, my vent line is long gone with the tank having been replaced. I ended up drilling a small vent hole in the filler cap to keep the vapors from blowing the cap out of my hand on hot days.
Oh, my doors panels have 4 screws as well.
Great post so far and I look forward to more details!

[1RAMAIR1]

Originally Posted by comanchefirebird

I hope to learn a great deal as I plan to restore my 69 TA.

That makes 2 of us. (lol) Today we pulled the Rear Differential apart and found something unusual. The setup appears to have never been taken apart and the original GM part number stampings were found on the Ring Gear. The Build-sheet for the car says it came with 3:90 series gears. When we opened it up, the gears were 4:11. What are the chances that the Factory installed the wrong ratio gears for the car?

[Judge273]

That would be a first.

Since, the original owner would probably know what rear gear he had expected. Hard to NOT know the difference....

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 1RAMAIR1

That makes 2 of us. (lol) Today we pulled the Rear Differential apart and found something unusual. The setup appears to have never been taken apart and the original GM part number stampings were found on the Ring Gear. The Build-sheet for the car says it came with 3:90 series gears. When we opened it up, the gears were 4:11. What are the chances that the Factory installed the wrong ratio gears for the car?

I would think it's more likely been apart even though it doesn't look like it. Factory stampings are not unusual, either.

What would be unusual would be if it was stamped as a 4:11 but was really a 3.90 (or vise versa).

K

[1RAMAIR1]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

What would be unusual would be if it was stamped as a 4:11 but was really a 3.90 (or vise versa).

When we checked the numbers stamped on the gears, it was a 4:11 GM set up. When we turned the drums, the pinion yoke rotated a little over 4 revolutions. The housing is a 1969 issue (with the N casting) and flat spots on the top of the axle tubes. The Car's Build Sheet shows that it was originally a 3:90 setup. Pontiac did not offer a 4:11 ratio in the 1969 Trans Am. The next higher ratio would have been a 4:30 set up. I can't figure out what discerning advantage anyone would have received by switching from a 3:90 set up to a (non-Factory) 4:11 ratio?!

[tom s]

Did chevy offer a 4.11?I believe they can be used with a chevy yoke change?Tom

[trishieldchief]

Originally Posted by 1RAMAIR1

That makes 2 of us. (lol) Today we pulled the Rear Differential apart and found something unusual. The setup appears to have never been taken apart and the original GM part number stampings were found on the Ring Gear. The Build-sheet for the car says it came with 3:90 series gears. When we opened it up, the gears were 4:11. What are the chances that the Factory installed the wrong ratio gears for the car?

I started a thread a few months ago, asking everyone here, if anyone, had a 69 TA with factory special ordered 3.90 posi rear axle.

After a long thread, it was concluded that all 69 RA III Trans Ams were 3.55 Posi rear axle cars.

Do you have the PHS for this TA and does it show special order axle?
If so, please post the PHS to your car.

Thanks Rich

[1RAMAIR1]

Originally Posted by trishieldchief

Do you have the PHS for this TA and does it show special order axle?
If so, please post the PHS to your car.

Thanks Rich

Hi Rich! I was wrong about the 3:90 axle being on the Build Sheet. When I bought the car, the person who owned it had "wrote" that it had originally came with a 3:90 set up. I just found the PHS invoice and it only shows a 4 speed and tinted windshield as the options on the car. The weird thing is that it has an AM radio that appears to be original and is correctly dated for the car. It also has Rally II Wheels that appear to be original to the car and correctly dated for the vehicle. It came from a Dealership that was notorious for selling "race sponsored" vehicles and I think this T/A may have been converted when it was new. I have no way to know this for sure. Things just don't add up.

Here is a picture of the ring gear from the rear set up. What would a GM original 4:11 (37/9 stamping) set up be doing in an original "N" 1969 Firebird housing?

[RAJ7395]

The 2680 stamping on the ring gear is the date of manufacture and indicates that the ring gear was produced the 268 day of 1970. As the gear post dates the cars production by over a full year, it was obviously added at a later date and is not a correct "born with" component.