[JSPONT]

Are you not getting enough throw to release the pressure plate? Get someone in it while you are under it. It looks like you have the short throw out bearing too. Where did you get the parts?

[F ROCK]

the kit was from napa.
the fork came from another member here on the forums.
i'm disassembling again and will post photos today.
thanks for sticking with me on this.

[F ROCK]

here's a pic of the throwout bearing.
it has these numbers on it: 63927 B

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Formula8

Sorry, but I thought my posting was pretty clear. My set up worked perfectly. I swapped out the stock type clutch for a DFII. No other changes than that and cutting the flywheel. Clutch had to go to the floor. I took it apart, measured everything and needed a longer pivot to meet the stock spec. I also measured the distance to the tip of the fingers and there was a .250 difference. Sooooo......to get me back where I was, I needed a .250 taller T/O bearing. Simple as that. My point is check to make sure you get what you need.

I'm still lost, trying to understand here. I think the issue with your setup was the fact that the pressure plate was .250 shorter, which required a longer throw out. Think about it, the rear of the block and the bell housing, are both fixed distants, and turning a flywheel .002 or .003 isn't going to to change that distance enough to impact the pivot ball.

Where did you find the stock spec for the pivot ball, and what is it?

.

[HWYSTR455]

Yeah, that's the short one. So, with it all assembled, WITHOUT the push rod in place or on the fork, and you work the fork so the bearing hits the pressure plate, what is the orientation of the fork in relation to the centerline of the trans/crank?

That determines if the throw out bearing is the right length.

Also try to explain better what you don't feel is right if you can.

.

[F ROCK]

here are afew more pics.
the bellhousing had the 978xxx number on it so I assume its factory.
the fork has no number that I can see right now.
the fork doesn't seem to move much when its clipped in there.
does this look likew the correct ball, and is this something that gets adjusted?

[HWYSTR455]

I still can't see where the problem is, need to be able to see it all together, and the location of the fork with all the slack taken out of it. A pic from below of the fork, and a pic of the z-bar should help.

I am not aware of any factory pivot balls that are adjustable, at least not GM ones, and no, it doesn't get adjusted. We are so far from determining if an adjustable pivot ball would be needed in this case, don't even think about that until everything else is eliminated.

Nails in the shifter? Are you still trying to install the trans with the shifter installed on it? If it's a Hurst shifter, buy a pit pack and the adjustment tool before you even think about installing it on the trans. Seriously. And you still need to ensure the trans is in neutral before you try to install the trans, so need to know which way the shifter tabs are pointing. Both forks should be centered, the slot/keyway should be vertical.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/huu-3327302

As for watching the tines, or fingers, or whatever, compress as you tighten the bolts, yeah, it's supposed to do that, it's applying pressure to the disc so it engages. If it were completely relaxed, there would be no pressure applied to the disc/flywheel, and it would slip or actually, not engage at all. And it is important to go in increments around the pressure plate as you tighten the bolts as to not damage the spring material in the pressure plate. If it becomes distorted, it won't apply pressure evenly to the disc and it will fail early.

At this point, the only things that I can see that might be a problem here it either the throw out bearing is too short or the z-bar and/or associated linkage is installed wrong or are the wrong ones for the application.

The ball stud that goes in the z-bar on the frame side has a clip that retains it, has 2 nylon cup washers on either side of the ball, and a gauze washer. The threaded part of the ball is slotted/keywayed and goes into the slot in the plate. If the z-bar has a grease fitting it can be greased, if not, you pack it with grease.

A service manual would probably be very valuable for a number of items discussed here.

.

.

[F ROCK]

the shifter is off. the trans is in neutral and spins freely.
the garage and myself are covered in gear lube despite the new seal I've installed.
cant stab the trans in.
crossmember wont go back far enough.
tilt engine, try again
tilt engine, try again
tilt engine, try again.
tilt engine, try again
tilt engine, try again
jack engine, try again
jack engine, try again,
jack engine, try again.
exhausted now.
more blood, and lumps on my head for nothing.

[JSPONT]

I have a scatter shield on mine, but tonight I will get under it and take the rod off to show you the angle of my fork resting on the pressure plate. I think you might need a longer throw out bearing. Check back by 9pm eastern,Ill post it by then!

[F ROCK]

thank you.
I have got it all back together now with the same result.
the fork is holding the bearing against the tines without any foot pressure; but when I push the pedal, it feels like a sponge, like its only pulling a spring and I cannot feel the clutch part at all. yes, I know how it is supposed to feel. this trans came out of my 66 lemans.

also, the trans is bolted up tight to the bellhousing and the crossmember is sitting there, straight, 12" back from the jacking location, on each side; but the trans mount is about an inch too far toward the passenger side?

[JSPONT]

The inch could be in the motor mounts. The photos I posted is the fork pushed until the throw out bearing touches the pressure plate. I have a stock ball and as you can see its out much further than yours. That could be a problem too, because the earlier cars had a different fork and ball. You can buy an adjustable ball.
Hope this helps!

[Batman]

Aftermarket pressure plates will not always be the same height as OEM or other aftermarket pressure plates. Turn the flywheel and there you introduced another variable. This is not a Pontiac specific problem.

You need an adjustable pivot ball http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-700110 and/or a longer throw out bearing. There are several lengths available, but measure your old one and order one 1/4 longer to start with. There is also a longer clutch pushrod available from GM- I think it is a Corvette p/n but will fit or you can do what I've done in the past and weld an acorn type lug nut that fits the clutch fork recess if you need a longer push rod length.

FWIW I never use the clutch disk alignment tools anymore as they just aren't worth the trouble. With the pressure plate bolts started enough to hold it in place but still allow moving the disk, get a straight view at the disk with a good shop light head on and adjust the disk to dead center using a ratchet extension or something similar in the pilot bushing. Using your dominant eye it's pretty easy to center the pilot bushing hole in the clutch disk hole and then tighten. If it's off a bit, as others have said have someone push in the clutch pedal while jiggling the trans in from underneath, but honestly this is rarely required.

Also, it's not real intuitive but sometimes you have to push straight up slightly on the front of the trans to get it to pop in even though everything else looks perfectly aligned. You will probably be very good at removing and replacing your trans when you get done. Just my experience.

I've also learned the hard way over the years to ensure that pilot bushing/bearing fits and the clutch disk slides freely all the way on the trans input shaft and the clutch disk seats on the installed flywheel before trying to assemble anything. Yes, clutch disks can bottom out on flywheel bolts

[stickboy]

What about from the z bar down? Are you getting good travel at the pushrod? The pivot point needs to be solid. Can you get someone to push the pedal while you watch from underneath?

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by F ROCK

thank you.
I have got it all back together now with the same result.
the fork is holding the bearing against the tines without any foot pressure; but when I push the pedal, it feels like a sponge, like its only pulling a spring and I cannot feel the clutch part at all. yes, I know how it is supposed to feel. this trans came out of my 66 lemans.

also, the trans is bolted up tight to the bellhousing and the crossmember is sitting there, straight, 12" back from the jacking location, on each side; but the trans mount is about an inch too far toward the passenger side?

Just because the trans came out of another car has nothing to do how the clutch will feel, you do realize that don't you? The clutch is probably totally different than the clutch you had in the other car, right? It might just be a weak pressure plate, and the leverage the linkage provides might be different. So, now, with it all together, TAKE A PIC. You are making this way more difficult than it needs to be.

***Next step would be to measure air gap on the disc, which is done with the pedal depressed, with a feeler gauge between the flywheel and disc.***

No one here can recommend an adjustable pilot ball, different throw out bearing, or any other part without knowing the results of the above step, period.

The pics that JSPONT posted gives a good perspective on the angle/relationship of the fork to bell housing, and would be a good indication if the throw out is correct.

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say 'jacking location', and the cross member being too far to the passenger side. So, if it needs to move, move it. If the rear of the trans is off to one side, you probably boogered an engine mount from all the activity. Check them.

I strongly suggest you get a factory service manual, and review areas that you plan to work on beforehand, get familiar with how things are supposed to be assembled and terminology. It will save you tons of frustration in the future.

Also, if you're asking for advice, read the advice, make sure you are clear on the direction, and actually FOLLOW the advice. That will also help reduce the effort and frustration.

How many times did you take that thing apart and put it back together now? I think I'm just as frustrated as you are!

.

[F ROCK]

"Also, if you're asking for advice, read the advice, make sure you are clear on the direction, and actually FOLLOW the advice. That will also help reduce the effort and frustration. "

Thanks highway star.
first off; I have followed advise. I have provided several photographs also.

I know what a clutch pedal is supposed to feel like; that's all I was trying to say.
If you don't know where the jacking locations are, well rather than write something sarcastic, i'll just tell you that they are holes in the frame right at the end of the boxed section, behind the front wheel.

fyi this is not the first time I've changed a clutch. I've done all three of my work trucks; twenty years ago, but this is the first time in a car and there's a lot less room.
this is, however, my first automatic to 4 speed conversion.

at this point I believe I have it together correctly, with the correct parts.
thank you all for your input.

[HWYSTR455]

Well, I apologize, my intent wasn't to offend, really, I do try hard to help folks here. I was just shy a few quarts of coffee when I replied.

So it's together and still feels the same? Is the fork moving when you press the pedal?


.

[F ROCK]

well tonight I removed the z bar and frame bracket.
the frame bracket was a bit worn, and wouldn't hold the shaft tightly.
I squeezed it in my vise, now the shaft fits in there snug like it's supposed to and I could tighten it up better. that was causing some slop.
the engine side has the bolt and sleeve which is still pretty sloppy but after I cleaned it up real good I noticed that it was plated, and that the plating was only slightly worn, so I guess that's just how it is, so I reassembled.
I don't feel that the zbar and linkage are part of the problem now.
I've called around napa, pep boys, ect. I only see one throwout bearing listed.
my bellhousing is a factory piece.
my fork has no number on it but it looks just like the one in the PY catalog.
I will attach the fork angle photo that you've requested as soon as I find my camera in this mess.
i'm thinking of exchanging this clutch/pressure plate.
I don't think an adjustable ball, longer pushrod, or taller bearing is the answer.
but I thank everyone for their suggestions, and for sticking with me on this.

[Formula8]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I'm still lost, trying to understand here. I think the issue with your setup was the fact that the pressure plate was .250 shorter, which required a longer throw out. Think about it, the rear of the block and the bell housing, are both fixed distants, and turning a flywheel .002 or .003 isn't going to to change that distance enough to impact the pivot ball.

Where did you find the stock spec for the pivot ball, and what is it?

.

Here is a write up that may assist the OP: http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/clutches_etc.htm

My instructions from centerforce gave me the spec. I'll see if I can find it but as I remember, I set it the same as this guy in his video @ 4.750:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=22TwNOpXcPA

[JSPONT]

For a few more $$ check out centerforce kit. I never had any problem with them. Ran them in many of my cars. Keep us posted!

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by F ROCK

well tonight I removed the z bar and frame bracket.
the frame bracket was a bit worn, and wouldn't hold the shaft tightly.
I squeezed it in my vise, now the shaft fits in there snug like it's supposed to and I could tighten it up better. that was causing some slop.
the engine side has the bolt and sleeve which is still pretty sloppy but after I cleaned it up real good I noticed that it was plated, and that the plating was only slightly worn, so I guess that's just how it is, so I reassembled.
I don't feel that the zbar and linkage are part of the problem now.
I've called around napa, pep boys, ect. I only see one throwout bearing listed.
my bellhousing is a factory piece.
my fork has no number on it but it looks just like the one in the PY catalog.
I will attach the fork angle photo that you've requested as soon as I find my camera in this mess.
i'm thinking of exchanging this clutch/pressure plate.
I don't think an adjustable ball, longer pushrod, or taller bearing is the answer.
but I thank everyone for their suggestions, and for sticking with me on this.

"Engine side has a bolt and sleeve which is still pretty sloppy but after I cleaned it up real good I noticed that it was plated, and that the plating was only slightly worn, so I guess that's just how it is, so I reassembled."

Not sure how the plating lead you to believe that's just how it is, and this is a perfect reason pics work much better helping others understand what you're trying to explain. Think as far back as post #12 we were asking for pics of the z-bar and linkage, and that would have helped isolate any issues there.

"i'm thinking of exchanging this clutch/pressure plate.
I don't think an adjustable ball, longer pushrod, or taller bearing is the answer."

This is a simple mechanical equation with a simple mechanical solution, and one of those 3 are the most likely solution, or in worse case, a combo of those 3 items. You have to methodically approach the problem to find the cause, and then correct it. If you just swap the parts without knowing what's wrong you very likely will end up with the same problem, because the pressure plate and disc ARE GOING TO BE FOR THE SAME APPLICATION. Understand the logic there?

So the 3 areas are:
* throw out bearing, which can be eliminated by viewing the fork angle.
* linkage/throw, which can most likely be eliminated with a pic
* and then engagement/disengagement, which in general is adjustment (if all above are correct)

Do you have a buddy or friend that is knowledgeable that can come over and lend a hand? Sometimes a second set of eyes can really make a difference.

.