[Sirrotica]

[quote=72projectbird;5348792]

The only good Malibu's were the 2nd gens.

And if we want to talk other "names" for cars then Pontiac really screwed the GTO name up.

That's your opinion, I don't happen to share that opinion.

Just think if chevy had been able to get their hands on the Monaro/GTO platform like they wanted to. I guess from your viewpoint they would have tarnished the chevelle/malibu name too. OMG..... look at their styling on the red and black car, chevy stylists designed it. I don't like it, maybe you do though?

For the people that despise the late model GTO because it wasn't an attempt of a new car to look like the old one. Your 100% right it doesn't look like a remade interpretation of a 64-74 GTO. You know what else? a 2004 Grand Prix doesn't look like a 64 Grand Prix either, 2004 Bonnevilles don't look like 1964 Bonnevilles.

The 2004-2006 GTO looks amazingly similar to a 1997-2003 Grand Prix, 2 door which doesn't resemble any GP south of 1987. It's called progress. If I wanted a car that looked like a 65 GTO then I would have bought a 65 GTO and lived with all the things that are common to 65 GTOs. I have owned 3 of them (2 hardtops and 1 convertible) and like the 05 GTO much better for a daily driver.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with the late model GTOs, people that rag on them never driven one or owned one. Maybe their jealous?

I've owned plenty of 65-73 GTOs and there isn't one thing that the old cars do that the new one can't do, and the late models do it better.

BTW, Pontiac doesn't own the GTO name, they stole it from Ferrari, and if you look at the Monaro police car picture you'll notice on the rocker panel it is a GTO too. Ferrari enthusiasts thought that Pontiac ruined the GTO name when they put it on the upgraded Le Mans option in 64.

Loosely translated the Gran Turismo Omolagato, is Grand Touring Homologated. Means that a manufacterer took off the shelf parts from their inventory and made a high performance car from them. I think the late model and the earlier cars both fit the designation perfectly.

[Hitman]

I think the car is pretty darn cool. I got the pleasure to check one out on powertour the last couple of years as GM was carting one around. I agree, too bad they couldn't get the price down but still it is a cool car.

[Jim Doran]

Just for the hell of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux6lVtUexN0

I suggest turn off volume during rap crap at the end.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Dick Boneske

For $45K, can you tell me which BMW, Infiniti, Lexus offers performance equivalent to the Chevrolet SS? Also, a list of American sedans that offer equivalent performance to the SS at $45K?

They can't, because they simply don't exist.

As for the BMW 5 Series V8 has a base price of about $65,000, the Lexus Q70 V8 base is 63,000 and the Lexus LS460 base is $73,000.

Even the 4 cylinder BMW 5 Series with less than half the HP starts at thousands more than the SS!

As I posted earlier, the SS is a bargain in today's auto market at $46,000 for a V8 RWD performance sedan.

[Overkillphil]

I never understood the notion that if someone doesn't like something, they must be jealous. If it were true, it would seemingly have to apply universally.

I've never met anyone who liked the smell of dog crap, but using the aforementioned theory I suppose there are a lot of jealous people in that regard.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Overkillphil

I never understood the notion that if someone doesn't like something, they must be jealous. If it were true, it would seemingly have to apply universally.

I've never met anyone who liked the smell of dog crap, but using the aforementioned theory I suppose there are a lot of jealous people in that regard.

It wasn't a statement, it was a question.

It wasn't a theory or a notion, it requests an answer.

I know the punctuation was correct, so I don't know how it was misconstrued as a statement of a theory, or as you say a notion.

The person it was addressed to will most likely never answer yes, even if he is jealous, so it ends up as a rhetorical question, which isn't the reason I asked the question initially.

Rhetorical:
(of a question) asked in order to produce an effect or to make a statement rather than to elicit information.

You have to admit, the way a human beings mind works many times they run down something they are confused about, or just can't have, sometimes they run something down because they honestly don't like it. As I said he is entitled to his opinion, my opinion contrasts his though and I explained why my opinion is what it is.

On the other hand the person it was directed at gave no reasoning for his opinion why he believes Pontiac screwed up the name GTO, even when they stole it from Ferrari. His opinion mirrors the same as the Ferrari enthusiasts felt when De Loren and friends tacked it on an American Pontiac Le Mans optioned car.

The true definition of the abbreviated name GTO surely applies to the Deloren Pontiac GTO, as well as the Pontiac Lutz GTO, Ferrari, and Holden HSV GTO. There are other car companies that have used the abbreviation, but these are the most well known examples.

One other thing, the Malibu/Chevelle name has been pretty much interchangeable since 1964 only denoting the level of trim on the same car. In 1997 then it became it's own model in a FWD mid size car. I'm not sure if that poisons the Chevelle/Malibu name or not, looks like the 68-72 cars are the only ones worthy of that nameplate. I'm not sure if it being used on cars after 72 makes it screwed up or not. I guess we'll have to wait and see if that destroyed the name, or not.

[72projectbird]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

For the people that despise the late model GTO because it wasn't an attempt of a new car to look like the old one. Your 100% right it doesn't look like a remade interpretation of a 64-74 GTO. You know what else? a 2004 Grand Prix doesn't look like a 64 Grand Prix either, 2004 Bonnevilles don't look like 1964 Bonnevilles.

The 2004-2006 GTO looks amazingly similar to a 1997-2003 Grand Prix, 2 door which doesn't resemble any GP south of 1987. It's called progress. If I wanted a car that looked like a 65 GTO then I would have bought a 65 GTO and lived with all the things that are common to 65 GTOs. I have owned 3 of them (2 hardtops and 1 convertible) and like the 05 GTO much better for a daily driver.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with the late model GTOs, people that rag on them never driven one or owned one. Maybe their jealous?

Im not sitting here saying the "new GTO" should have looked like an old one, but it shouldn't have looked like a larger Chevy Cavalier with an LS in it. Believe me, I'm not jealous about anything. I've driven them and they're nothing to get worked up about.

And I know Ferrari used the name before Pontiac. But if I recall correctly, Ferrari never made a bad GTO. The 250, 288, and 599 are works of art.

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

The person it was addressed to will most likely never answer yes, even if he is jealous, so it ends up as a rhetorical question, which isn't the reason I asked the question initially.

Once again. Not Jealous in the least.

[Ron Landis]

I just divide the GTO into "classic" and "import" models. I suppose it would work for the SS as far as a line of cars...but that moniker was applied relatively loosely throughout the years. It all goes back to "it is what it is". That being said...an LS with a six speed in ANYTHING sounds like fun.

[Dick Boneske]

I'm glad we got that sorted out!

As some have said, $45K for a performance sedan with many options exists on only one platform, the Chevrolet SS. There is nothing like it from anyone near the msrp.

[Will]

Originally Posted by Dick Boneske

For $45K, can you tell me which BMW, Infiniti, Lexus offers performance equivalent to the Chevrolet SS? Also, a list of American sedans that offer equivalent performance to the SS at $45K?

To me, the "bells & whistles" are simply an added bonus.

Performance is usually not the bottom line for people buying such cars.

The SS would clearly outperform most other cars in it's price range in terms of straight line performance. People buying $45K cars usually aren't looking for a dragstrip warrior, thus the performance potential of the SS isn't part of their calculations.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Will

Performance is usually not the bottom line for people buying such cars.

The SS would clearly outperform most other cars in it's price range in terms of straight line performance. People buying $45K cars usually aren't looking for a dragstrip warrior, thus the performance potential of the SS isn't part of their calculations.

The majority of people buying a 4 door full size RWD performance car are not dragstrip warriors. I seriously doubt that Dick has plans for racing his SS on a regular basis.

So what point are you really trying to make?

[Dick Boneske]

Straight line, Will?? Have you driven one? I certainly didn't buy it for straight line performance. It's a far cry from dragstrip warrior, although the question of what else is available for $45K to match straight line performance would apply. The braking, handling, acceleration, and appearance are why people buy a car like this. The creature comforts are an added bonus.

[Will]

The point is obvious - the car is overpriced and the reason it isn't selling well. MOST people with $45K to drop on a 4-door car aren't all that interested in whether the car is the fastest one or not. They're buying a semi-luxury vehicle from a nameplate that isn't Chevrolet. Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, and lower end Audi, BMW, and Mercedes are what they're after.

It's as simple as that.

I don't have any problem with the SS. In fact, I kind of like it and wish I could afford one. It would be a helluva lot of fun as a daily driver. But, like I said, I'm in no position to drop $45K on any car. I wish it was selling well in the $30K range, that way I could buy a slightly used one in a couple years at a big discount.

The thing is, the people on this forum don't represent the majority of the buying public. We're car enthusiasts and solidly in the minority of the car buying public. That's why there are almost no cars left with manual transmissions and why a $45K Chevy with a big V8 doesn't sell.

[klunker]

Originally Posted by Will

The point is obvious - the car is overpriced and the reason it isn't selling well. MOST people with $45K to drop on a 4-door car aren't all that interested in whether the car is the fastest one or not. They're buying a semi-luxury vehicle from a nameplate that isn't Chevrolet. Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, and lower end Audi, BMW, and Mercedes are what they're after.

It's as simple as that.

I don't have any problem with the SS. In fact, I kind of like it and wish I could afford one. It would be a helluva lot of fun as a daily driver. But, like I said, I'm in no position to drop $45K on any car. I wish it was selling well in the $30K range, that way I could buy a slightly used one in a couple years at a big discount.

The thing is, the people on this forum don't represent the majority of the buying public. We're car enthusiasts and solidly in the minority of the car buying public. That's why there are almost no cars left with manual transmissions and why a $45K Chevy with a big V8 doesn't sell.

Excellent observation. The younger kids I know that like and drive sticks are looking at BMW, Mazda, Audi and similar stuff.
I would argue you can get a really nice BMW 3 series that may not be as quick at a stop light but most kids don't care about that. A 3 series BMW is a much more refined car, has nice fit and finish. Its just in a whole different world. Now me being an old fart, I still own nothing but sticks and I wouldn't buy a car without one. As mentioned above, the people that value stop light performance are in the minority.

I paid about the same as the price of a SS for my last used car about 8-9 years ago. But it had only 1500 miles on it and for all practical purposes it was new, but the price was a big discount from new. I don't care if your SS can beat me at the stop light. My car is infinitely a better driver car than a V8 rear wheel drive chevy. I've got a wagon, lots of room for stuff and all wheel drive, I don't EVER get stuck. The car drives like a panzer tank in the snow. So while your sitting there spinning and sliding I just motor away with out a slip. Getting around in the snow is much more important in a daily driver than racing to the next stop light. And talk about "fancy" options. I've got heated steering wheel, headlights that turn with the steering wheel, loadleveler, I can adjust the heated seats to apply the heat where i want in the seats, and other junk that I don't even use.

The car I had before the one I currently owned was a rear drive GM car with a 6 speed. A Caddy CTS. Bought it new. What POS for a daily driver. Especially in a state that gets snow. It was total useless in snow. I had to get a set of blizzaks so I could drive it in the snow. Besides the lack of traction it had all kinds of annoying features. The doors locked automatically, you had to hit the unlock button to get out of the car, it had a parking brake on the floor instead of a hand parking brake, the rear windows would not roll down all the way, the headlights (xeon I believe) didn't light up a thing, had the dealer look at them "that's just the way they are". and several other annoying "features". Last GM I will ever buy. Sold it after less than a year.

[carcrazy]

While it may be a good performer, it has a generic look-nothing that distinguishes it from most others vehicles on the market. 45k looks to be the base msrp. I'm betting you could end up over 50k easily. At my age (mid 60's), I struggle with cars costing this much-even though I can afford them. Perhaps that is just a sign of getting old.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Will

The point is obvious - the car is overpriced and the reason it isn't selling well. MOST people with $45K to drop on a 4-door car aren't all that interested in whether the car is the fastest one or not. They're buying a semi-luxury vehicle from a nameplate that isn't Chevrolet. Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, and lower end Audi, BMW, and Mercedes are what they're after.

Once again, I think you are totally missing the point.

People that are interested in the SS aren't looking for the fastest car. They don't care about that. If that were the case, they'd be looking at the 707 HP HellCat Charger.

People buying the SS are looking for a much more refined car that is more fun to drive. You keep on bring up low end semi luxury imports - but none of them have a V8 engine.

In case you haven't noticed - V8's are different then 4 or 6 cylinder engines. Well that may not mean much to some - it does to some people.

Would I like to own a V8 powered 5 series - yes I would. But that extra $20,000 and lack of BMW dealerships in the area I live an travel in tells me that the SS is a better value.

As to the pricing - if the SS is overpriced - how come you can't come up with something similarly equipped that can compete with it?

Taking a BMW 5 series as an example - for $50,000 you get a 4 cylinder. To get the V8 version it takes $65,000 to get one.

Funny, it takes $15,000 to put a V8 into a BMW and Chevy can go from a 4 cylinder Impala LTZ to an SS for only $10,000.

The SS, for the customer looking for a full sized, very nicely equipped, V8 powered, rear wheel drive, performance sedan is a bargain.

This car was never intended to be a best seller. It's a niche market. How many V8 powered BMW 5 series are sold each year? Not very many - as it is a smaller market that the car appeals to.

Would I like to own a V8 5 Series? Sure I would. But the extra $20,000 and the lack of BMW dealers in the area that I live and travel in tells me the SS is a much better value to me.

[Dick Boneske]

Great response, Champ!! Your points mirror the reasons I bought the SS. The V8 factor is important to quite a few of us---maybe because we grew up with them. As someone pointed out on another forum, the Hellcat or Charger would easily beat a SS in the 1/4 mile, but wouldn't do well against a SS if there were any curves involved.

The only place we differ is our desire to own a BMW V8. I think they're some of the best-engineered cars in the world, but I've got a poor opinion of their owners, however. That opinion is from personal experience, justified or not.

I've had similar experience with many Corvette owners, which is why I have no desire to own one of them. One of the reasons I've always liked Pontiacs is because they never were mainstream. It gave me great pleasure to beat the Chevelles, Camaros, Road Runners, Super Bee's, Chargers, etc. at the drag strip. And, now that drag racing is just a memory for me, having an old Pontiac or seeing one at a car show or on the street also gives me great pleasure. I guess I'm a weird old bird.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Dick Boneske

Great response, Champ!! Your points mirror the reasons I bought the SS. The V8 factor is important to quite a few of us---maybe because we grew up with them. As someone pointed out on another forum, the Hellcat or Charger would easily beat a SS in the 1/4 mile, but wouldn't do well against a SS if there were any curves involved.

The only place we differ is our desire to own a BMW V8. I think they're some of the best-engineered cars in the world, but I've got a poor opinion of their owners, however. That opinion is from personal experience, justified or not.

Dick

I fully understand why you wanted the SS. You are one of the "guys" that GM targeted for this car.

As to the BMW - I lived in Germany for over 3 years and always wanted one while I lived there - but as a Spec 4 in the Army I could only afford an Opel. Christmas of 2013 I did get to put a couple thousand kilometers on a 5 Series BMW station wagon (we took our daughter and grandson with us and needed the luggage capacity), but it was only a 4 cylinder TDI.

Very nice ride and cruised easily at 160 KPH down the autobahn. But it didn't have the V8 sound or torque.

If I wanted one bad enough, I could buy one. But I don't want one bad enough to pay an extra $20,000 over the price of the SS. Not to mention the costs to have it serviced.

I do agree that many BMW owners are not my type of people. Many of them aren't car guys at all - they are just status seekers.

[Will]

Uhh, whatever. I'm not missing any points, you don't seem to understand what it is I'm saying.

I'm talking about the buying public, in general. I totally get why you bought one, or why any member of this forum would buy one - we like V8 power and the performance that the SS offers is impressive. Yeah, I already said I'd like one if I could afford it. Like I said, the members of this forum represent a small minority of the car buying public - people who actually care about things like V8 power.

But, apparently, it's too much of a "niche" vehicle if it doesn't sell enough to justify it's continued production. Chevy's killing it after this year, right?

Because, in general, people with $45K to spend on a car aren't buying a Chevy, regardless of how it's equipped. THAT's the point I'm trying to make.

Your personal preferences aren't in question here - it's about what sells in the bigger market. And if this car is just as good as a BMW 5 series at a much lower price, why do people buy BMWs and not Chevies? Obviously BMW is able to sell enough V8 5 series to justify their continued production. If Chevy can't make a car like this that sells enough to justify it's continued production you have to ask why.

[goatwgn]

Originally Posted by Dick Boneske

Great response, Champ!! Your points mirror the reasons I bought the SS. The V8 factor is important to quite a few of us---maybe because we grew up with them. As someone pointed out on another forum, the Hellcat or Charger would easily beat a SS in the 1/4 mile, but wouldn't do well against a SS if there were any curves involved.

The only place we differ is our desire to own a BMW V8. I think they're some of the best-engineered cars in the world, but I've got a poor opinion of their owners, however. That opinion is from personal experience, justified or not.

I've had similar experience with many Corvette owners, which is why I have no desire to own one of them. One of the reasons I've always liked Pontiacs is because they never were mainstream. It gave me great pleasure to beat the Chevelles, Camaros, Road Runners, Super Bee's, Chargers, etc. at the drag strip. And, now that drag racing is just a memory for me, having an old Pontiac or seeing one at a car show or on the street also gives me great pleasure. I guess I'm a weird old bird.

BMW V8s are a PITA when you service them or repair them. The 6 cylinder is a much better unit. That being said, I work on all makes of vehicles and BMW/ Mercedes owners are the worst. And you can throw the Corvette in there for good measure. These people command applause when they show up. They usually never get it though. And automakers need to stop "targeting" BMW. Not everybody likes the hard seats, the weird interior color combos, the hard ride, or the $5000 water pump replacements. And the BMW people are never, never going to "cross shop" a Chevrolet, Buick, Cadillac, Lincoln, Ford, Chrysler product, Hyundai, Kia, Toyota, Nissan or anything else to replace their BMW.