[Dragncar]

Jack, HO was doing that with a 326. But it was not a normal 326. It was a 50s block with a very short stroke and those real small mains. Factory modified forged crank. RAIV heads.
They modified a sbs Edelbrock two four tunnel ram.
You can bet it pulled well past 7000 RPM.

[slowbird]

Did they dyno it? Where someone chooses to shift at and where an engine makes peak power at are two completely different thing.

[cfmcnc]

Working on the AP 541Tiger Development engine we have got to 2.105 HP-CU with valve seat leakage,broken valve springs and rods to close to oil pan,Hate to do the shudda-cudda-woudda thing but we think when we get a solid engine it will be at 2.2+.Dont think 2.3 will happen with this combo .Engine has 2.350-1.670 valve size,1.040 net lift on int.15.2 cr.Peak HP at 8200rpms,This engine does not have all the Max Effort stuff available ,Just a development tool to evaluate Tiger heads and other AP products.Bill C.

[Dragncar]

I don't know Brian. But the HO Racing folks are still around here. They have placed some pics of the engine with the sbc tunnel ram here.
I would have to believe a short stroke 326ci engine with RAIV heads flowing close to 300cfm would have to pull past 7000RPMs. I have this 8200 number in my head.
Maybe one of them can let us know.
OK, I just PMed Craig Hendrickson from HO. Maybe he will let us know more about that 326!

[johnta1]

HO Racing Tunnel Ram



Some of these kids need to remember the past.

[john marcella]

Originally Posted by johnta1

HO Racing Tunnel Ram



Some of these kids need to remember the past.

The past is the past for a reason!

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by john marcella

The past is the past for a reason!

That is a SILLY remark................KIDS!


GTO George

[dci]

Originally Posted by cfmcnc

Working on the AP 541Tiger Development engine we have got to 2.105 HP-CU with valve seat leakage,broken valve springs and rods to close to oil pan,Hate to do the shudda-cudda-woudda thing but we think when we get a solid engine it will be at 2.2+.Dont think 2.3 will happen with this combo .Engine has 2.350-1.670 valve size,1.040 net lift on int.15.2 cr.Peak HP at 8200rpms,This engine does not have all the Max Effort stuff available ,Just a development tool to evaluate Tiger heads and other AP products.Bill C.

Bill thanks for the input!!! This is the kind of info I want others to see so they can get an idea of what it takes to make even 2 HP per cube. When you get over 1.5 HP per cube it starts getting a little more involved and costly. I want everyone to realize that making 2HP per cube is not like falling off a log like some think. It takes a well though out combo with some very expensive parts and machine work to make it happen. Not to mention a good cylinder head.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

That is a SILLY remark................KIDS!


GTO George

You may think so....but its still a true statement.

Craig and kern were inivators for sure. And pioneers in many ways. What you refuse to see is there are others pioneering advancements today.

[cfmcnc]

Technology Marches On.Bill C.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Originally Posted by cfmcnc

Technology Marches On.Bill C.

Technology has also gotten lost (forever). I've seen it with capital equipment being destroyed, capabilities lost, and organazations scattered. And yes the dumb these days think they are wiser, with doing "firsts" in tweaks and sorts.

Oh if we had continuity in development pursuits, todays results would look different, and be different. Perhaps better. Perhaps pigeon-holed. HIS

[Dragncar]

Come on guys. If it were not for people like Nunzi, HO Racing, Butler, Whittmore and the rest of the Pontiac die hards of the 70s and 80s we would not be where we are today.
No freaking way, not a chance.
When I first started trying to build a performance Pontiac in the mid 80s all you had were cast iron heads, blocks and factory SD rods. No Crower rods were available. You could get custom steel billet or BME rods. The only "real" intakes were the T1 and the Warrior. No Victors available. Butler started playing around with using BBC 6.8 rods and custom pistons. I have a set of 455 SSD rods with over 1200$ in them.
This WHOLE THING got going with the Edelbrock head and the Eagle rods.(Jim Butler told me this) None of this happens without those 2 things. Then The IA1 folks made a block based on Beswicks factory race blocks. They made their block and was a tough block.
I know for a fact that Edelbrock called Dan Whittmore and asked him his opinion of what kind of aluminum head to build. He told them he wanted a aluminum RAIV head. but he wanted a version with smaller chambers so you could get CR out of a 400.
Everything the Pontiac world has today was built on the backs of the die hards before them.
If it were not for them the Pontiac would have went the way of Oldsmobile and Buick.
That means that none of you Pontiac "big dogs" would be doing what you are today without them.
History is history. Give them the credit.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Come on guys. If it were not for people like Nunzi, HO Racing, Butler, Whittmore and the rest of the Pontiac die hards of the 70s and 80s we would not be where we are today.
No freaking way, not a chance.
When I first started trying to build a performance Pontiac in the mid 80s all you had were cast iron heads, blocks and factory SD rods. No Crower rods were available. You could get custom steel billet or BME rods. The only "real" intakes were the T1 and the Warrior. No Victors available. Butler started playing around with using BBC 6.8 rods and custom pistons. I have a set of 455 SSD rods with over 1200$ in them.
This WHOLE THING got going with the Edelbrock head and the Eagle rods.(Jim Butler told me this) None of this happens without those 2 things. Then The IA1 folks made a block based on Beswicks factory race blocks. They made their block and was a tough block.
I know for a fact that Edelbrock called Dan Whittmore and asked him his opinion of what kind of aluminum head to build. He told them he wanted a aluminum RAIV head. but he wanted a version with smaller chambers so you could get CR out of a 400.
Everything the Pontiac world has today was built on the backs of the die hards before them.
If it were not for them the Pontiac would have went the way of Oldsmobile and Buick.
That means that none of you Pontiac "big dogs" would be doing what you are today without them.
History is history. Give them the credit.

Reading comprehension?

[v869tr6]

Originally Posted by john marcella

The past is the past for a reason!

Did a little math, the Crow ran 166.87 mph in the 1/8 on a pass where he blow the tires off.
If the Crow weights 2800lbs ( I have no idea what it weighs) the Wallace calc. shows 2021 hp at the crank, or 4.19 HP per each of the 482 cubic inches.

[JSPONT]

Originally Posted by v869tr6

Did a little math, the Crow ran 166.87 mph in the 1/8 on a pass where he blow the tires off.
If the Crow weights 2800lbs ( I have no idea what it weighs) the Wallace calc. shows 2021 hp at the crank, or 4.19 HP per each of the 482 cubic inches.

I think they are talking N.A. It is nice what a hairdryer can do!!

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Come on guys. If it were not for people like Nunzi, HO Racing, Butler, Whittmore and the rest of the Pontiac die hards of the 70s and 80s we would not be where we are today.
No freaking way, not a chance.
When I first started trying to build a performance Pontiac in the mid 80s all you had were cast iron heads, blocks and factory SD rods. No Crower rods were available. You could get custom steel billet or BME rods. The only "real" intakes were the T1 and the Warrior. No Victors available. Butler started playing around with using BBC 6.8 rods and custom pistons. I have a set of 455 SSD rods with over 1200$ in them.
This WHOLE THING got going with the Edelbrock head and the Eagle rods.(Jim Butler told me this) None of this happens without those 2 things. Then The IA1 folks made a block based on Beswicks factory race blocks. They made their block and was a tough block.
I know for a fact that Edelbrock called Dan Whittmore and asked him his opinion of what kind of aluminum head to build. He told them he wanted a aluminum RAIV head. but he wanted a version with smaller chambers so you could get CR out of a 400.
Everything the Pontiac world has today was built on the backs of the die hards before them.
If it were not for them the Pontiac would have went the way of Oldsmobile and Buick.
That means that none of you Pontiac "big dogs" would be doing what you are today without them.
History is history. Give them the credit.

I'm sure there are a few here with stories of Pontiac guys that pushed things to the limit. Unfortunately with each passing year, these guys are no longer here to share with us.

Back in the late 60's, my dads 4000+lbs 59 Catalina ran high 12's with a 396ci Pontiac engine, 59 small valve (self ported) heads and the short block built by Ray Nichols. Even back then, guys like Ray Bisig had solid lifters, later teamed up with Dave Johnson, they had connections to the good parts and kept going faster. These guys always pushed for more, always went faster with limited factory parts.

Now we have big bore blocks, 400+ CFM cylinder heads and strong aftermarket parts selection. We still suffer from the limitations of the original design, a small bore space, a talk deck small block engine with big mains.

2.3 HP to CI may be in the future, but we still have a way to go.

Hats off to the dedicated loyalist that continue to invest in the Pontiac heritage.


Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[dci]

Calvin, Take a look at the link I provided here.

http://www.enginelabs.com/news/cfe-d...-block-engine/

Maybe Pontiac's were ahead of their time. It seems like the LS crowd just keep making their decks taller and their bore spacing is currently way less than ours is. Although in this article it's the same as ours, and this is new leading technology for them. Don't get me wrong I know a short deck is what is needed to make big power, but in reality how many Pontiac guy's are going to build a $100,000 + engine for bracket racing. I don't know about your clientele, but I have a hard enough time getting them to spend what it takes to build a reliable bracket engine LOL. I do believe though that we will see 2.3 HP per cube with our current platform maybe sooner than you think. We just don't have that many people wanting to play at this level. So it takes our little group longer to get there.

[Glenn Sedig]

Originally Posted by dci

Calvin, Take a look at the link I provided here.

http://www.enginelabs.com/news/cfe-d...-block-engine/

Maybe Pontiac's were ahead of their time. It seems like the LS crowd just keep making their decks taller and their bore spacing is currently way less than ours is. Although in this article it's the same as ours, and this is new leading technology for them. Don't get me wrong I know a short deck is what is needed to make big power, but in reality how many Pontiac guy's are going to build a $100,000 + engine for bracket racing. I don't know about your clientele, but I have a hard enough time getting them to spend what it takes to build a reliable bracket engine LOL. I do believe though that we will see 2.3 HP per cube with our current platform maybe sooner than you think. We just don't have that many people wanting to play at this level. So it takes our little group longer to get there.

Don,
I don' usually blow my horn but we just spent Monday 3/30/2015 on BES's dino and got to 1075.5 hp and 763.0 ft/lb trq out of 473 cubic inches. Need 12 more hp to get to get 2.3 hp/cu. We could possibly get 12 hp but it will take more manifold and carburetor work. I need to improve the performance of the rest of the car before I spent ???? on 12 hp.

[dci]

WOW that's really cool, good job !!! Do you mind sharing engine specifics?

[johnta1]

That's awesome, Glenn!

Congrats on getting it done!