[OCMDGTO]

Don't mean to get off track, but Ponyakr I can't believe someone almost kicked you off a forum for giving your 2 cents-isn't that what a forum is all about? Weather or not it is old tech who cares as long as it works & you are sharing your experience. Not everyone wants to spend $ on a roller, and you can't deny a proven combo. For the record I am a roller fan, and having Cliff Ruggles & Dave Bischop share info on here is like Xmas for any Pontiaddict.

[77 TRASHCAN]

LOL, it seems like here that sometimes, seemingly few people read the experienced words written here...over and over and over.

Anyone reading this post, I am reminding them that of Cliff's post #1 about selecting a cam for a 455.

So you say it's just a driver??? You put a puky smallish 350 chebby cam in it, and nothing turns out right, doesn't idle right. won't run right, pings like a popcorn machine. All this possibly because someone's grand dad that's "been do'in this for 40 years" tells you you need an XE cam at the local machine shop....DON'T DO IT!!!

Thanks again to Cliff for constantly communicating combo's that DO work. There's WAY too many wives tales STILL out there that people still listen to these days. I found an old High Performance Pontiac magazine a while back. This shop was reducing the compression ratio by cutting down the piston tops (entire top whittled off in a lathe), opening up the quench distance BIG time....duh... can you say, ping???

The Chevy world deserves a lot of credit for some of the things we can do with a Pontiac engine these days. Folks out there building ka-jillions of them, finding things that actually can and do work, putting to rest the wives tales that we've all heard FOR STINK'N EVER...

Ponyakr,
The pianist heads on the other forum don't deserve your life experience's w/ Pontiacs. We welcome them here!!!
A few years ago here, someone was asking for a cam referral for a fairly high comp 455. An 041 cam was recommended by one poster. Along comes someone telling him it was "outdated" and a bad selection. That "someone" was kindly informed the truth about how awesome an 041 cam can be in a 455...

If you read this that I've written about the 041 cam and don't care to believe it. Get Jim Hand's book. I've witnessed his wagon (4100 pound car) run mid 11's effortlessly. May have even seen it on the magical day @ Ark City when it broke into the 11.30's, way back.

Thanks again for Dave B. Posting here. also!!!

[Steve C.]

Jim's wagon / "I've witnessed his wagon (4100 pound car) run mid 11's effortlessly. May have even seen it on the magical day @ Ark City when it broke into the 11.30's, way back."

I remember that day. Mine shaft air conditions, all or most of us were running great that day. I always loved Jim's engine bay, not what you might expect from under the hood. It was a classic color combination to go well with his car. I used to raze him a bit about the 041 cam in jest, I always felt it belongs in a 400 cid not a longer stroke 'truck motor' combo. Anyway it was fun.

77 TRASHCAN, good info as you have pointed out, as long as we understand the 041 is not always the miracle cure Not all combos thrive on a ton of seat timing and a wide lobe separation.


.

[77 TRASHCAN]

Steve
We've exchanged conversation at the Southern Nat's in those years gone by. You were having challenges w/ keeping your battery charged on long cruises at one time. I thought I had an idea of an alternator that would help (turned out it was not what would have worked...sorry).
Myself and my fellow Pontiac enthusiast's always enjoy your car, it's a dream deal for most. I hope to get mine to such a state of tune and luster, thinking of your car as an inspiration while doing so!!!
Ark City was such a cool place for that event. The pits might be what's given me the good feelings of going there in the past, all paved for everybody!!!
I'm thankful for Wichita w/ Tom and Sharon helping put the current event on. I'd sure like all these regional events grow, like the Southern Nat's....were years ago...
Jeff

[ta man]

For a basic 9.25 to 10.2 to 1 Compression 455 with mild flow numbers it still hard to beat a 041 or 60919 Crower with Rhoads setup...it just plain works...Maybe somebody should post all the "Jim Hand Articles" on a sticky here for the newbies!

[77 TRASHCAN]

Originally Posted by ta man

For a basic 9.25 to 10.2 to 1 Compression 455 with mild flow numbers it still hard to beat a 041 or 60919 Crower with Rhoads setup...it just plain works...Maybe somebody should post all the "Jim Hand Articles" on a sticky here for the newbies!

Amen to that!!!
I wonder if maybe 10.5:1 might help w/ the idle and allow the use of conventional lifters w/ the 041 cam..

The 041 might not be the best for all combinations, but compared to XE cams....

[ponyakr]

Here's a few I Googled up right quick. Don't have a clue how to find all of 'em. Some links I found no longer work.

http://www.pontiacsonline.com/Jim%20Hand.htm

http://community.fortunecity.ws/silv...build/cams.htm

http://www.dapa.org/drag-racing-with...modifications/

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....ld455jh99.html

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....455jh2006.html

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....ockerArms.html

https://home.comcast.net/~ericdouthitt/compression.htm

[ponyakr]

"...I wonder if maybe 10.5:1 might help w/ the idle and allow the use of conventional lifters w/ the 041 cam..."

I wouldn't even consider using the 041 with reg lifters. You lose too much vac and smooth idle. IMO.


"Variable or leakdown lifters are designed to lessen the cam duration and lift at low engine speeds by allowing more oil leakage within the lifter body while the lifter is under valve spring pressure (on the cam lobe). As the leakage is a function of time, the lifters leak the most at low rpm, because there is a relatively long time during the lift cycles. This allows the Rhoads lifter, with its machined leakdown groove in the body, to shorten the lobe duration by 10 to 15 degrees and reduce the lift at low rpm.

As the engine speed increases and the cycle time becomes shorter, less leakage occurs. At 3,000 to 4,000 rpm, the actual leakage and the effect on cam timing become inconsequential. The dramatic increase in vacuum and low-end torque provided by these lifters more than offsets the slight loss of upper-end horsepower in a heavy, automatic-equipped vehicle, such as my wagon. The overall result is the ability to use a fairly radical camshaft to maximize mid-range and top end power while developing strong lowed torque.

Additionally, a variable lifter will operate to a much higher rpm before it begins to hold the valve open due to lifter pump-up. The weight/viscosity of the engine oil used will have a significant effect on leakdown lifters. The thicker the oil, the less pronounced the leakdown eject becomes.

It is neither necessary nor advisable to use Rhoads lifters with a streetable cam such as the 068, because the cylinder pressure may rise too high at low rpm, causing detonation or pre-ignition. There are benefits and disadvantages in all types of variable fibers, but the Rhoads units provide the best overall performance in my wagon.

...only a direct comparison test, such as conducted with the wagon, would prove that the 041 with Rhoads lifters is clearly a better performer than this typical non-Pontiac-grind cam with Rhoads lifters.

It was beginning to appear that Pontiac Engineering might actually have known what they were doing when the 041 was designed." (Jim Hand)

[Skip Fix]

With as good a results as the Ultradyne cams got, even with Butler using them as his main go to cams(before Harold and the IRS got sideways and shut it down) I still don't know why more guys are not still using them. Bullet has them even Lunati has them as Harold did a tent there(when I got the 296/304 in my pump gas motor).

FWIW with an US 304/312 on a 112 in my RAIV 400 Rhoads did not help vacuum any or improve bottom end and even regular lifters ran power brakes fine. They were so noisy , and would bleed down even when trying to set them(start at zero tighten more then it would feel almost as loose as at zero from bleed down) I replaced them.

[ponyakr]

"...Rhoads did not help vacuum any or improve bottom end and even regular lifters ran power brakes fine. They were so noisy , and would bleed down even when trying to set them(start at zero tighten more then it would feel almost as loose as at zero from bleed down) I replaced them."


Cliff, when you read this, please tell us how many problems you've had with Rhoads lifters. I used many sets, and never had a single problem with any of 'em.

[General Z]

Thanks to the people here, I pulled the XE262H out of my 469 and put in a Summit 2802 and never looked back.

The XE262H scorched off the line, but things were never quite right.

[Skip Fix]

My Rhoades were louder than my solid flat tappet and solid roller cams. Set the valves then go back around and all feel loose like they had no preload as they had bled down with the motor being off and no oil pressure while setting. Other than that they ran OK. I used them as I was racing in a class with a vacuum rule-they did not increase it any for me, so why use noisier lifters that did not help my idle vacuum was the reason I dumped them.

[Cliff R]

I like and use Rhoads lifters on flat tappet hydraulic camshafts as we pick them very carefully for our engines to make optimum power on pump fuel.

Never once had the first problem with them. They are very well made parts and easy on the cam as well.

There are some applications where you really woln't see a big performance gain, but you will see improved idle quality, usually about 2" vacuum improvement at idle speed. They will make some noise at idle and low Rpm, so if you can't deal with some "ticking" at idle speed I would avoid them......Cliff

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

I have a set of original Rhodes in a healthy cammed 428CJ FORD with dual quads. Being an auto trans car with power brakes, they provided a definite increase in idle quality in gear,idle mixture adjust-ability (reaction to idle mixture screw adjustment) and idle vacuum. Also an increase in low end torque...a welcomed improvement over the same cam with standard lifters. The valve train sound is very similar to a solid lifter cammed engine.I like them in this application!

[rtanner]

Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN

LOL, it seems like here that sometimes, seemingly few people read the experienced words written here...over and over and over.

Anyone reading this post, I am reminding them that of Cliff's post #1 about selecting a cam for a 455.

So you say it's just a driver??? You put a puky smallish 350 chebby cam in it, and nothing turns out right, doesn't idle right. won't run right, pings like a popcorn machine. All this possibly because someone's grand dad that's "been do'in this for 40 years" tells you you need an XE cam at the local machine shop....DON'T DO IT!!!

Thanks again to Cliff for constantly communicating combo's that DO work. There's WAY too many wives tales STILL out there that people still listen to these days. I found an old High Performance Pontiac magazine a while back. This shop was reducing the compression ratio by cutting down the piston tops (entire top whittled off in a lathe), opening up the quench distance BIG time....duh... can you say, ping???

The Chevy world deserves a lot of credit for some of the things we can do with a Pontiac engine these days. Folks out there building ka-jillions of them, finding things that actually can and do work, putting to rest the wives tales that we've all heard FOR STINK'N EVER...

Ponyakr,
The pianist heads on the other forum don't deserve your life experience's w/ Pontiacs. We welcome them here!!!
A few years ago here, someone was asking for a cam referral for a fairly high comp 455. An 041 cam was recommended by one poster. Along comes someone telling him it was "outdated" and a bad selection. That "someone" was kindly informed the truth about how awesome an 041 cam can be in a 455...

If you read this that I've written about the 041 cam and don't care to believe it. Get Jim Hand's book. I've witnessed his wagon (4100 pound car) run mid 11's effortlessly. May have even seen it on the magical day @ Ark City when it broke into the 11.30's, way back.

Thanks again for Dave B. Posting here. also!!!

i cant count the # off threads ive seen thru the years, guys come on here newbies, ask advice on building a 400 or 455 start lots off threads get lots off really good advice from people who know and do it everyday, then they come back on and say something like oh i went w the xe-268 the machinist recomended, then if you ever here from em again, it doesnt run right in some form or fashion, its rediculous really.

[rtanner]

ive got the ra-4 rhoades 1.65 combo right now, about my 5th time to use it, im seriously considering getting comp to grind me a 305 magnum on 114, then putting rhoades on it, i tried that cam when i was a newb back in 1977 and it had 0 till 3k in a 400, but once i got it rolling it would make 396 chevelles cry, w 455 cubes some compression and a wide lsa w rhoades it might perform well.

[ponyakr]

"...im seriously considering getting comp to grind me a 305 magnum on 114, then putting rhoades on it..."




Back in the late '80's, Comp made a cam with the 292H Magnum lobe on the intake, and the 305H Magnum on the exhaust. I put one of these in our 2nd gen 455 bracket engine. With Rhoads lifters, it would still idle good enuff and make enuff low end power to leave from an idle, with a stock converter. But, the engine had 72cc iron heads on it. So, I don't know how that cam would have done with less than 10:1 CR.

Anyhow, if your gonna buy a custom cam anyhow, you may wanna get 'em to make it a dual pattern.

[1969GTO]

Originally Posted by rtanner

i cant count the # off threads ive seen thru the years, guys come on here newbies, ask advice on building a 400 or 455 start lots off threads get lots off really good advice from people who know and do it everyday, then they come back on and say something like oh i went w the xe-268 the machinist recomended, then if you ever here from em again, it doesnt run right in some form or fashion, its rediculous really.

Not trying to start a new thread, but I get where you are coming from.
I met a guy at a Pontiac car show and he told me about how he just had his 400 built and used the cam the machinist suggested and the car was a dog. I asked if he ever went on to some of the Pontiac forums and he doesn't bother with that stuff .
I tried to ex plane the engine could use more cam, and his reply that he fixed the problem by buying these mufflers that you can adjust the back pressure with. Now he says the car is fast
It's loud and noisey

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by rtanner

ive got the ra-4 rhoades 1.65 combo right now, about my 5th time to use it, im seriously considering getting comp to grind me a 305 magnum on 114, then putting rhoades on it, i tried that cam when i was a newb back in 1977 and it had 0 till 3k in a 400, but once i got it rolling it would make 396 chevelles cry, w 455 cubes some compression and a wide lsa w rhoades it might perform well.

That would be an interesting test. A friend of mine uses the 305H ground on a 108 and has run 11.6 @ 116 mph using 1.5 rockers, B&M 2500 rpm converter and 3.36 gears.

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Originally Posted by 1969GTO

Not trying to start a new thread, but I get where you are coming from.
I met a guy at a Pontiac car show and he told me about how he just had his 400 built and used the cam the machinist suggested and the car was a dog. I asked if he ever went on to some of the Pontiac forums and he doesn't bother with that stuff .
I tried to ex plane the engine could use more cam, and his reply that he fixed the problem by buying these mufflers that you can adjust the back pressure with. Now he says the car is fast
It's loud and noisey

I broke my leg so the doc did an appendectomy and I walk much better now........