[Steve C.]

"The"hybrid" set-up takes the hydraulic action of the lifters out of the equation, so they will rev right past where HR lifters give up without additional spring pressure."

And here in this application Cliff is talking about 145 or more lbs seat pressure.

And in the opinion of many that should be a minimum after they lose a bit of pressure after run in.


.

[Jim Hand]

This topic has moved fast and covered many subjects, so I am a little late posting on “obsolete” and “modern” cams, but it contains facts rather then speculation.

Several previous posts mentioned my wagon running so well at the October, 2000 Pontiac Uprising in Arkansas City, Kansas. We had been running 11.50’s/115 at Kansas City, but at Ark City, it got with it and ran 11.30’s/117. But as mentioned, the weather caused the big increase in performance – the temp was in the 50’s, baro as high as 30.60, and a strong/steady tail wind.

But this performance caused a terrific uproar on this board, especially with several that were consistently pushing the then fairly new E heads. I had bought a new Holley carb built for my car to find out how my home prepped Q Jet was working (pre Cliff days). The agginers suggested the great performance at Ark City was due to the new carb and that I couldn’t run well without such new modern parts. Or it was the clocks, or I was running fuel prepared for me by another member, or my car was not nearly 4050#, or my home ported iron heads just couldn’t do that (64’s flowing 254 peak) and much more such crap! Yet, many of the board members were there and watched us run all day. Incidentally, the chief “mouth” no longer posts on this board.

To shut up some of the BS, I posted I would reinstall the Q Jet, an 041 cam, an iron stock intake, and the quietest mufflers I had and still run 11’s at 4050#. That even caused some doubt with Pontiac Dude, but he didn’t fuss about it like several others. I made the changes over the winter, and the second time out was solidly in the 11’s. We ran the setup through 2001, but I still had the 3.55 gear in the car. We went to the Pontiac Uprising in 2001 – lost in Super Pro, but won the Second Chance/Gamblers bracket.

So I installed a 3.31 for the upcoming 2002 season. We again went to the 2002 Uprising in Ark City to run about as many stock parts as possible – the “obsolete” 041 cam and original style Rhoads lifters, a doorstop Pontiac intake with a Q Jet, (the Holley was long gone back in the ’71 season!), a 3.31 gear, 28” tires, stock type water pump and clutch fan, HEI, and no line lock! And weight as raced was at least 4050# - didn’t reweigh after adding the iron ! And this time no mine shaft air – had about a 25-30 MPH head wind all day, and 70-75 temp with a normal baro.

To give everyone an idea what the “obsolete 041” and moderately home ported iron heads can do, I have dug out the time tickets we ran and will list the results in order starting at 10:15 AM and finishing at 7:19 PM. No shut downs, no redos, simply go through Tech, warm the car, and head for the line! Note: my friend Kevin Kirk drove several time trials and the brackets. He is about 40# lighter – thus the larger variations in ET!

TIME TRIALS

1/4 ET, 1/8ET, 1/8 speed. 1/4 speed, 60'

11.91 - 7.54 - 91.29 - 111.14 - 1.699

11.88 - .753 - 91.27 - 111.85 - 1.687

11.89 - 7.51 - 90.96 - 111.44 - 1.66

11.77 -7.43 - 91.66 - 112.19 - 1.639

11.78 -7.44 - 91.78 - 112.16 - 1.644

SUPER PRO

Dial---- Ran
11.77 11.81 - 7.47 - 91.57 - 112.10 - 1.654 LOST!

Gamblers

11.80 11.81 - 7.46 - 92.46 - 112.16 -1.65 WON

11.80 11.78 - 7.44 - 91.70 – 112.13 - 1.639 WON opponent red light

11.75 11.758 ---- ---- 112.16 - 1.644 WON (BYE RUN)

11.77 11.73 ----- 113.20 113.20 - 1.634 WON opponent red light

Final two agreed to split the $284 purse and race!

11.72 11.718 ---- ---- 113.75 - 1.647 LOST/BREAKOUT Won $142 on the split

And remember that with good traction, 100# is .1 second at this level of performance. So at 3500#, we would have run 11.30 – 11.40.

In other words, the 041 is a great cam in a 455 – it matches the torque range very well but is pretty salty without Rhoads lifters up to about 3000 RPM. It is too much cam for a 400 unless special gears and a correct looser converter are used along with a short block that can handle some R’s.

Jim Hand

[PAUL K]

Jim, great example of the Pontiac 455's potential! No high dollar exotic parts, properly ported cast iron cylinder heads and a lot of hard work figuring out what works and what doesn't work. I remember your HPP "street fighter" magazine article from way back and how much your wagon progressed over the years.

[Jim Hand]

Paul,
I forgot to incude the 1/4 MPH! And several of the tickets didn't have all data in the gamblers listings.

Jim Hand

[peterz84]

GREAT thread gents. Learning quite a bit here. Jim, question for you. With all your experience with "old tech" cams and the newer breeds of HT and roller set ups, what would be your choice of cam for a typical ported iron headed, iron intake, 9:1-10-1 compression, hot street/mild bracket car? Would you go solid, HT, roller...?

Thanks
Pete

[ta man]

Jim is the 4050lbs with driver or without?

[rohrt]

Any truth to the claim that tighter LSA cams are more geared to racing? Don't they usually generate more peak HP in the RPM range that you would use in racing?

I don't know how you could really test that theory. If you took the OF cam and put it on a 110 or 108 LSA then your also changing the timing events.

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Originally Posted by rohrt

Any truth to the claim that tighter LSA cams are more geared to racing? Don't they usually generate more peak HP in the RPM range that you would use in racing?

I don't know how you could really test that theory. If you took the OF cam and put it on a 110 or 108 LSA then your also changing the timing events.

Great read on LSA here:http://www.compcams.com/Pages/413/ca...ion-angle.aspx

[rohrt]

Originally Posted by 72LuxuryLeMansLa.

Great read on LSA here:http://www.compcams.com/Pages/413/ca...ion-angle.aspx

Thanks I have seen that before.

I use to run my 455/96head with the ultradyne H10 cam(110 LSA), TII intake, Edlebrock carb, 3 tube headers. and a TCI street fighter torq converter. It ran hard and was a good set up.

When I transplanted the 455 in my bird, I changed to a stock intake, Cliff Q-jet, long branch headers with a Continental 13" converter. It changed everything. Idle was not very good, nozzle drip just burned my eyes and stunk up the garage in seconds. Didn't seem to run as hard.

I swapped the cam to stump puller and went with the 114 LSA vs the 112. Not sure that was a good decision performance wise but the idle is pretty darn smooth, no more stinky exhaust.

Point is same motor and heads but one cam worked better with the rest of the combo then the other. Like Dave Bisschop said just because you find a result in one combo doesn't mean it applies to others.






I really wish that I was able to compare cam specs visually like this. It seems it would be easier to compare timing events.

[TheSilverBuick]

Originally Posted by rohrt

I really wish that I was able to compare cam specs visually like this. It seems it would be easier to compare timing events.

I know, I've made similar plots in excel based on the @.050, advertised duration and peak lift, but those plots are fairly generic due to not actually knowing the lobe shapes. And I try and add one more line to the plot, the cylinder's airflow demand by crank angle, just to better understand what is going on at each of those valve events. It'd be nice to commonly have that too. Buick 455's have a short 3.90" stroke, so it's piston location and piston speed is quite a bit different than a Pontiac's at the same crank angle.

[Skip Fix]

"Point is same motor and heads but one cam worked better with the rest of the combo then the other. Like Dave Bisschop said just because you find a result in one combo doesn't mean it applies to others."

Exactly. And "modern cams" can run good or better depending on the combination even with iron heads. It's all about the complete combination and ability to fine tune it. Can everyone do it with the similar combination -NO! Talking to Jim and seeing the wagon in person you know he is meticulous in his thoughts, design and tuning. How many guys out there have tried to run a 10:1 iron head 455 with an 041 or Wolverine cam and iron Q jet intake and just been in the 13s and pinging -I'll bet a whole lot more than are in the 11s like Jim and his brother Floyd have run. The "old technology" did not work for them, new technology probably would not either.

I'd bet if you go to a Chevy show/race most of the faster guys SBC are not running "old technology" ported Camel hump heads, Duntov 30-30 cams(or even the "first design off road cam) z/28 aluminum intakes and a Holley 780!Nor are the BBC guys running ported rectangle port closed chamber heads with a L-88 cam and intake.

Heck "old technology" Top fuelers with barely out of the 7s and just over 200 mph when all of this "old technology" was new! Pro stockers were barely in the 9s with tunnel rams, acid dipped bodies. How many Pontiac guys now are in the 9s using some "new" technology? Bet more than there were in the 70s!

"Old" can work but "new" is not bad and slower.

[wovenweb]

Originally Posted by Jim Hand

It is too much cam for a 400 unless special gears and a correct looser converter are used along with a short block that can handle some R’s.

Jim Hand

Like others have said, this is a great thread. I may detour it slightly as I have and will be building a 400 for my '68 coupe.

Based on your comments here and in your book, does this make the 068 cam the better choice for a 400? Based on having some streetability. I've asked about the Ram Air II cars and Jim Mino indicated that the auto equipped ones likely came with the 068.

By gears from your comment, I'm guessing 3.90 or higher(standard gear for Ram Air cars).

Any thoughts on the converter? Was this a necessary item to change from the factory on a TH400 equipped car, would there have been a different converter for the Ram Air(II) cars? I would think Continental could put something together for this type of combo but have noted that some mentioned in this thread not using them for 400 builds.

FWIW, I've got a '70 Ram Air III block(4 bolt), a set of untouched Ram Air II heads(SR), a PQ code TH400, a 7028270 Quadrajet from Cliff's shop, and a posi 3.90 geared 8.2 inch rear end and will be using these as the basis of my build. Bigger points of contention are what cam to use, do I get the heads ported, resized for 1.65 rockers, will the rear hold up, etc.

[wovenweb]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

Heck "old technology" Top fuelers with barely out of the 7s and just over 200 mph when all of this "old technology" was new! Pro stockers were barely in the 9s with tunnel rams, acid dipped bodies. How many Pontiac guys now are in the 9s using some "new" technology? Bet more than there were in the 70s!

"Old" can work but "new" is not bad and slower.

I agree with your premise, but we're in the street section where I think the general point of this thread is that an "old" grind cam, iron headed street vehicle can still take you into the 11's(competitive with the fastest production vehicles made today) on today's pump gas.

Does it take a lot of work and tuning, yes.

[Jim Hand]

Peter,
For a 455 variant, exactly what I was running when the wagon and I retired several years ago:
A 234-235 intake, 244 exhaust, 112 LS conventional flat hydraulic with Rhoads adjustable lifters (9518XL), very careful break-in with break-in oil or lube, and a high quality oil made for this application, such as Brad Penn medium to light weight. I have no suggestion for 400 or smaller engines. Cliff's post #195 above expresses my view also of adapted universal roller cams in a street car. They are not even remotely similar to correctly designed and sized rollers as used in current design new smaller engines.

TA, I normally I list as-raced weight because the driver's weight of 145 to over 200# makes a significant difference at the track.

I have included a sample of timeslips from such a recommended cam in a 4050# car (#5462) with a 473 engine and 3.55 gears (would run the same with 3.31 gears with slight tuning changes). double click for easier reading

Jim Hand

[peterz84]

Thank you Jim

Pete

[b-man]

Originally Posted by wovenweb

Like others have said, this is a great thread. I may detour it slightly as I have and will be building a 400 for my '68 coupe.

Based on your comments here and in your book, does this make the 068 cam the better choice for a 400? Based on having some streetability. I've asked about the Ram Air II cars and Jim Mino indicated that the auto equipped ones likely came with the 068.

By gears from your comment, I'm guessing 3.90 or higher(standard gear for Ram Air cars).

Any thoughts on the converter? Was this a necessary item to change from the factory on a TH400 equipped car, would there have been a different converter for the Ram Air(II) cars? I would think Continental could put something together for this type of combo but have noted that some mentioned in this thread not using them for 400 builds.

FWIW, I've got a '70 Ram Air III block(4 bolt), a set of untouched Ram Air II heads(SR), a PQ code TH400, a 7028270 Quadrajet from Cliff's shop, and a posi 3.90 geared 8.2 inch rear end and will be using these as the basis of my build. Bigger points of contention are what cam to use, do I get the heads ported, resized for 1.65 rockers, will the rear hold up, etc.

I would run the Summit 2802 or the Crower 60916, both are proven and popular 400 street cams, no need for 1.65 rockers. My opinion is there is no need to port the heads, you can easily get over 400 HP without head porting. In the long run your heads will retain value better if left unmodified, RAII heads are fine performing heads already anyway.

The RAII auto trans cars were equipped with the L88 converter or equivalent, so they did have a better converter than standard auto trans cars. I'd buy a good 10" 3000 stall converter to wake up the 400 equipped with a decent street cam, converter technology today is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was in the 1960s. I'm sure Continental can easily come up with the right converter for your needs, they built a 10" unit for me when I was planning a 60916 cammed 400 combo. I sold that converter before I had the chance use it (project changed direction) but surprisingly enough it did end up in a local guys 400 w/60916 engine build.

Your 8.2" rear may hold up for quite a while with street tires but once you start using any kind of sticky tire the game will be over soon. I would go straight to a 12-bolt aftermarket rear from the very start to save money and aggravation.

[ta man]

Thanks Jim for taking the time,its like the voice of God when you reply to a thread!

[b-man]

Originally Posted by ta man

Thanks Jim for taking the time,its like the voice of God when you reply to a thread!

X 2, thanks for chiming in Jim!

Always great to read your input, all based on real data and experience.

[Chicagogoat]

Thanx Cliff, Jim, & the rest of PY for such an informative thread!

[pmd400]

With an iron headed 9.5:1 455, what is the cut off point where roads lifters would be beneficial. With a 068 cam I assume rhoads wouldn't be needed. What about a summit 2802 or crower 60243 cam?