[MikeNoun]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

It seems to me we need a brief discussion about the different categories of company vehicle types:

PEP vehicles (company vehicles assigned for general transportation based on rank or level of authority) are the ones that adhere to the 3 month or 3000 mile rotation period. They are not to be modified in any way; they are regular plated and are assigned to an individual (by name) during their company ownership.

Test/Development vehicles do not ascribe to that same time period. They are kept for as long as needed, until used up, or until they "age out" and need to be replaced by a newer vehicle. That can be as long as a couple model years. They are intended to reside at Milford (or the DPG) or the engineering building and technically are not supposed to be used for general transporation, but could be if "normal driving" is part of the evaluation. They are typically M plated but there can be a few regular plated vehicles in the development fleet.* They are also intended to be cut up and experimented with, although ideally they can be returned to production intent and sold or auctioned at the end of their run. If they are too far gone they are "expensed" (written off the books) and are kept around as a junker or scrapped.

Test/development vehicles are assigned to the development fleet via an authorization code (or to the fleet coordinator) and are available to anyone to "check out" for use in their own development project or as a group on a vehicle ride trip (either on property or off property). The fleet only has a certain number of auth codes available which is why vehicles will time out and need to be replaced. That's also why "expensed" vehicles are kept around even though they could be scrapped: they are another car available for use but don't appear on the books.

Test/development vehicles are typically loaded with content for the legitimate engineering reason that you would like to test all the interactions between options, both electrically and physically. Also, if you find out during the model year that you have a problem in the field with some obscure option your chances are better of finding one to work with already existing in the fleet if you loaded them up in the first place. That saves time in terms of having to order a specific vehicle and wait for it to be built or scour the local dealerships for a vehcle with that particular option.

PEP vehicles are typically loaded with content...well...because management folks like cushy rides, and they are not paying for it.

K

*M plated vehicles are also not supposed to be used for general transportation. Legitimate M plate usage consists of (a) transporting the vehicle from one location to another, or (b) active testing on public roadways. Usage and transfer of plates between vehicles is logged and kept in the fleet office in the event that the Michigan Secretary of State (our version of the DMV) would like to review it.

That's the best summary I've read about what these vehicles were. Thanks Keith!

This is a 1969 log book that an engineer or tester would use as their journal. They logged their mileage, repairs, quirks, and any other incident that happened to occur during their evaluation.

Mike

[judgeragtop]

Good stuff! If you told all those Pontiac employees back then that we would be dissecting how they went about their work building, moving and selling cars 50 years later what would they think? Uhhh whats wrong with you people ! LOL!

[Keith Seymore]

Thank you; feel free to reuse that if it is helpful.

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

This is a 1969 log book that an engineer or tester would use as their journal. They logged their mileage, repairs, quirks, and any other incident that happened to occur during their evaluation.

Now - if I may continue - let me expand a bit on the the words "Test Trip log book":

A "Test Trip" is typically an off property excursion with a number of vehicles. It could be a powertrain cooling or HVAC test trip to Death Vally or Baker Grade; it could be a engine calibration trip or brake trip to Pikes Peak (powertrain guys run up the mountain; brake guys run down the mountain). Cold weather testing is done in Kapuskasing or northern Minnesota. Usually there are several subject vehicles, between two and a dozen or so, plus trip support (lead vehicle and tow/tool trucks. We even had a GMC Motor home at the DPG that we would send on ahead to the lunch stop after loading it with soft drinks and snacks). Observant vacationers might even notice a stream of GM vehicles on the highway, ideally in line and in order based on vinyl letters on the windshield and back glass ("L", "1", "2", etc).

Vehicles are normally selected out of those available in the development fleet based on the subject at hand. The trips normally start and/or end from one of the Proving Grounds (in Milford or Mesa) but can originate from a remote location after the test vehicles are shipped there.

Over the years "standard" test trip routes and locations get established and embedded. If we meet in person remind me to tell you about the "Western Mountain Brake Trips", which I hosted and probably should not describe in writing on a public forum.



Participants usually include all of the pertinent worker bees, plus their management. Sometimes outside groups like Marketing are included if their input or buyin is required (or sometimes just to play nice with the other disciplines). Often there is a predetermined driver rotation schedule so that everybody (almost) gets a turn to drive during the various "legs" of the trip - although the bosses seems to spend a lot more time driving than riding.

Data collection can range from purely subjective evaluations to somewhat technical objective observations using installed instrumentation. The "log book" is where these observations are captured, normally at each pit stop. The book might also include the aforementioned driver rotation and maybe maps plus the data sheets prompting obvservations and data entry. On some really high tech trips the data can be downloaded and formated while on the road so that it can be reviewed at a daily wrap up meeting during dinner or back at the hotel.

I say all this to make a distinction between a "test trip" (which is pretty special) and an engineer's day to day evaluations and activities.

K

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Heck of a good write up on those Keith !
Thanks for taking the time to do those and share with us all.

And an awesome little book shared by Mike too !

Like Keith has said - in general not many true Engineering Test Cars finish their business in good enough order to be sold to the public with a full warranty. We are lucky when they do , and then come out of the woodwork to grab our attention on here.

We only have 5 firm documented Engineering Based cars from 1969-1973 pop up in the past 10 years on here. Talking only about cars brought to our attention that were previously unknown.

Once upon a time most folks on here were calling every car that popped up with xx-99x (other than xx-991) anywhere on the Invoice - an ENGINEERING CAR .
That was a hard tradition to break.
Without help from some guys like Keith, i'd still be fighting that battle.

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

This car could/should actually be called "Test Car # 0339"
But any testing it might have done, would have been more mundane.
Maybe it was tested for MPG or potential electrical conflicts.
More of that nature, if any at all.

Sometimes things fall under an umbrella for the bean counters etc.
It looks more like a brass hat's Eldorado on the Invoice, than a Test Car.

I didn't want to go too deep into explaining this last part , but maybe I will later.
Or in parts at a time. or sumpn

There are some finer points I was told to look for by some great resources I used to have years back. This one is just a little different than the other ENG/DEV Invoice case studies in the past - as far as the direction of some of the finer points.

Some things in billing may have been mildly different in the 60's and early 70's than what Keith got acquainted with starting in the late 70's when he went to GM.
Thats only a very very friendly speculation at the most. Not a guarantee.
Personally - I was 6 years old when this car was sold.
And been going to school ever since then - it seems like.

I'm hoping at least Invoice #1 will materialize for this car, or the buildsheet.
Either one would save a LOT of typing.
All the typing in the world won't prove anything better than a paper trail will.



[edit - not saying my theory can't be wrong, saying its too much trouble really to explain all the points that got me there. Lets see if some more paper unravels on this machine.]

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

I didn't want to go too deep into explaining this last part , but maybe I will later.
Or in parts at a time. or sumpn

There are some finer points I was told to look for by some great resources I used to have years back. This one is just a little different than the other ENG/DEV Invoice case studies in the past - as far as the direction of some of the finer points.

Some things in billing may have been mildly different in the 60's and early 70's than what Keith got acquainted with starting in the late 70's when he went to GM.
Thats only a very very friendly speculation at the most. Not a guarantee.
Personally - I was 6 years old when this car was sold.
And been going to school ever since then - it seems like.

I'm hoping at least Invoice #1 will materialize for this car, or the buildsheet.
Either one would save a LOT of typing.
All the typing in the world won't prove anything better than a paper trail will.

Anything is fair game, actually.

I personally have contented vehicles to be ordered by the fleet coordinator and placed in the development fleet with the expressed purpose of purchasing them on behalf of a friend when they timed out.

Didn't work out, though, when the "buyer" couldn't come up with the cash.

[MikeNoun]

Keith, great info, thank you. And BVZ doing great analysis as always.

I'm not at liberty to post the details or the contents right now, but I have a 1969 GM Proving Grounds spiral bound report titled "1969 Proving Ground Cars - Specifications and Engineering Test Summaries" marked GM Confidential that I hope to be reporting on in the near future.

Mike

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Keith, great info, thank you. And BVZ doing great analysis as always.

I'm not at liberty to post the details or the contents right now, but I have a 1969 GM Proving Grounds spiral bound report titled "1969 Proving Ground Cars - Specifications and Engineering Test Summaries" marked GM Confidential that I hope to be reporting on in the near future.

Mike

Pontiac only? Or across all GM nameplates?

You know I'm in intrigued...



K

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

.. have a 1969 GM Proving Grounds spiral bound report titled "1969 Proving Ground Cars ...

Steve Hoog would be charting his course to Illinois this very moment if he were still with us. He loved that stuff. [teardrop]

High hopes it lists the two 69 Birds we have documented.
Orange 400 HO #9749
Red IV #9753 - or 9733

and the infamous elusive mysterious #9723 Orange Bird

W
O
W

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Anything is fair game, actually.

I personally have contented vehicles to be ordered by the fleet coordinator and placed in the development fleet with the expressed purpose of purchasing them on behalf of a friend when they timed out.

Didn't work out, though, when the "buyer" couldn't come up with the cash.

Is that offer still fair game? I could option out a fun Camaro that engineering could have their way with!

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Mike, totally forgot about 1 more 69 ENG/DEV car - if you can check on them in that Book.
(the total of 5 in past 10 years i posted earlier, should be 6 total - new math)

69 GTO Silver Ram3 Auto 3.90 Gears = Car # 9327 (Mega Loaded)

The Red IV Bird had Arctic Wiper Blades, 4.33 Gears, Automatic - so obviously it was a windshield wiper Test Car .. ahem

The Red Bird and the Silver GTO belong to PY members.
Sure they would be blown away if any data is logged about them.

Originally Posted by The Boss

Is that offer still fair game? I could option out a fun Camaro... !

First its a 1LE , now its another Camaro
Mr.BowTie ? Is that who you are now ? Really ?

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

First its a 1LE , now its another Camaro
Mr.BowTie ? Is that who you are now ? Really ?

Well if they were still building Pontiacs we could talk about something else - however....

What would you order if he was building one for you?

[orejudge]

This is what makes this hobby fun. If everything was cut and dry there would be nothing to talk about, and the what ifs would not exist. Great to have knowledgeable people here digging to get any info they can !

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by The Boss

What would you order if he was building one for you?

Something that gets at least 50 mpg - and runs on rain water.
Rain is all we have had for about 3 weeks now.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I'm Wi-Fi'ing at McDonalds , my Internet has been out since Friday.

And got to check out the eBay auction for this Judge.
Noticed the repo door jamb decal is also suggesting 04C build - like the trim tag.

If the buildsheet did previously exist for this car, it has likely been destroyed so as not to immediately blow the cover of the 04C fiasco.
Same thing with any other invoice copy that they might have also gotten from PHS.

The only chance we have is if someone had interest in auction and got their own PHS package - and shares it with us on here.

[Buck Wilde]

Any insight on what could have caused a 1971 GTO with a with a body build date of 09B to have a shipping date in December 1970?

There are no indications of it being a Zone/ 99- car or having any discounts applied on the invoice. The only thing I could find was that the interior trim card under the seat which contained the body number said the interior was installed on 11-24-71 which is 2 months beyond the body build date.

Maybe a delay in material?

[Held for Ransom]

A strike.

[Judge273]

As HFR says...








I had a 71 like that too. 9C Fremont