[Hunter98TA]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

If that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside then good for you. The absolute truth is that the 5-10 micron abrasives do the most damage to the internally lubricated parts inside of your engine, 21 microns is twice the size of the 5-10 micron most damaging size particles.

No you can't see them with your eye, but it doesn't change the fact that they wear the parts inside of your engine, "out of sight out of mind" isn't helping your engine live a longer life. If you want to believe that the small stuff isn't doing damage then that's your choice. Industry experts state otherwise and if you have any doubts then do some reading on the subject.

Filtering oil to a very fine degree is not going to harm anything, not filtering it is definitely going to harm parts. Believe what you want, evidence says otherwise.

I've educated myself on the merits of filtering the oil to a like new condition and I wish I had done it long ago. I could have saved myself money and work rebuilding or replacing engines and parts that wore out prematurely.

If you spend thousands of dollars on a street strip engine updating all the weak factory points and parts, why is it you neglect one of the most vital parts of the engine and cheapen out with the much inferior factory designed oil filtering system. It makes very little sense to me to rationalize that this one thing that keeps the engine lifeblood clean and able to do the best job under punishing circumstances is left up to a stock oil filter that in reality is just a sieve, not a filter at all.

BTW, most stock oil filter filter 60-80 microns efficiently, under that size the filtering efficiency goes way down, so yes it may collect some 21 micron particulate, but much of it keeps circulating unhindered by the inefficient factory designed filter. If by pass filtering isn't as efficient and extending engine life, why is it that all high mileage OTR trucks have by pass filtering systems to save down time money and extend engine life?

These engines regularly see a million miles with no engine failures or rebuilding. When was the last time you saw any passenger car engine run a million miles with no internal engine work? Never.

Years ago OTR trucks were lucky to get 500,000 miles without a major OH. With better filtration they now go twice as far all the time.

Your kidding yourself if you don't think the oil filtration as engineered by Detroit in the late 50s is adequate as it is. DON'T take my word for it, educate yourself and you'll find out that your stock style oil filtering system is woefully inadequate, especially in an engine that is run hard or raced. There is plenty of information on by pass filtering available and it's discussed by industry experts, not people hanging out on a forum rationalizing why their 65 year old oil filter technology is alright for their HP Pontiac engine or their daily drivers, and fills the bill just fine.

FYI even though I am a dealer for Frantz oil filters I have never sold a filter to anyone on this board and I don't expect to. Lots of curiosity but no buyers ever. The information I pass along is not to sell anyone anything, purely to get others on here to look into by pass filtering no matter whose product you decide to buy if you decide to buy anyone's product. It will save you money and extend your engines life in the long run. If you choose to retain the old technology on your cars and trucks then fine, please don't trivialize the facts I've presented as minuscule and dismiss them as BS.

I'm curious now. I have a rebuilt 400 putting out 455hp. It is not in the car yet, only on the dyno. What products should I invest in to get the BEST filtration of the oil?

[John62]

Can you post what some of these oil filter bypass systems look like so we know what to look for if thinking about adding one to a car.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by pugslyx234

Toyota has good filters.

Makes little difference how good a filter is if when the RPMs are up or the oil is cold the small square of filter paper is partially plugged, the by pass opens and the oil take the path of least resistance, around the filter. The full flow system is a huge compromise and it's priority is to get oil to the internally lubed engine parts. It only filters all the oil under ideal conditions and then it allows the fine matter to pass right through under any condition. The idea of filtering oil as it is being pumped to the internal engine parts is a really poor design that has to have a by pass valve engineered into it to stop oil starvation under less than ideal conditions.

By pass filters filter 100% of the oil that comes in the filter, there is no way around the filter. They can filter all the oil in the engine once in about every 6-7 minutes (4 quarts in 5 minutes). Returning it too the pan as clean as it came out of the bottle. Actually recently the manufacturers have found that new oil has some particulate when new, and a by pass filter will even filter out this in a few minutes to better than new condition.

I know I have seen some sediment in the bottom of brand new oil over the years.

[Sirrotica]

http://www.frantzfilters.com/?gclid=...FUQdgQod3nwO9Q

http://www.frantzoil.com/home.html

http://www.gulfcoastfilters.com/index.htm

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produc...y-pass-systems
/by-pass/filters-and-mounts/

Some of the major players in the bypass filter industry.

[John62]

They look big and intrusive. Are they mainly designed for trucks and/or diesel engines. What would be a small straight forward system for a car?

[TedRamAirII]

Check this out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_GVyKmOdrM

I just wonder where to put it. I dont want it obvious that its there.

[Hunter98TA]

I moved my battery to the trunk. I wonder if I could put it that location with the right length hoses.

[Sirrotica]

The Frantz is the size of a roll of toilet paper. It can be mounted anywhere in any position. Some other brands are larger than the Frantz and can go longer between element changes. Frantz element changes between 3,000-5,000 miles.

[Steve C.]

"Believe what you want, evidence says otherwise."

" If that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside then good for you."


Sir, it was a rhetorical question. A lecture is not required. And most of us are not going to use toilet paper !

.

[tom s]

I used a Baldwin bypass system on my DSL engines in my boat and just had oil analysis done every hundred hours.Tom

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

"Believe what you want, evidence says otherwise."

" If that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside then good for you."


Sir, it was a rhetorical question. A lecture is not required. And most of us are not going to use toilet paper !

.

Steve C, almost any oil filter made uses paper for filter media, paper is paper, plain and simple. the long fibers are the most efficient at trapping dirt and removing it efficiently. If you or anyone, have any proof of Frantz filters do not do what they claim to do, please post your facts here.

You can use any media you want, the fact is toilet tissue of the correct type is an excellent filter media. Not made of recycled paper and the rougher single ply is proven to be one of the best oil filter medias around to filter oil to a like new 1 micron particulate size. at a 98% + efficiency.

If most of you wouldn't use toilet paper as a filter media, you would be missing out on a proven method to filter oil better than the refinery does when they bottle it, suit yourself. I'd put a Frantz filter against any full flow filter made and it would be 30-40 times more efficient.

I use the Frantz on all my own vehicles, over 5 years now and it works just as it is advertised to it work. Some people can't get past the toilet tissue used as a media. No it does not come apart and plug up the oil galleys and sump screen. It filters oil to a very fine degree and will do something else no full flow filter does. It will hold onto up to 6 ounces of water or condensation to keep the water from mixing and causing acid formation. There is no full flow filter made that will trap water or moisture to keep it from turning into an acid. That toilet tissue doesn't look so bad now that it does something few other filters are capable of.

Two people here have already said they have had brand name full flow filters internally rupture and failing causing possible engine damage. I can assure you the media in a Frantz filter will nor move from the canister until you physically remove it.

The larger by pass filters use rolls of paper towel as filter media so they work on the same principal as the Frantz does, just on a larger scale. Dense long stranded paper fiber is a much better media than a one ply corrugated full flow filter has 100s of times more filter/fiber area than a typical filter has to catch all the particulate, instead of the bigger stuff.

I know I'd much rather filter all of the particulate the first pass than keep the smaller stuff re-circulating until the oil is drained.

See a by pass filter in action compared to a high end fleet gard filter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klcBRnyCSvo

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

paper is paper, plain and simple.

Brad

I when I read that, I just had to comment...

If you've ever wiped your butt with the micro thin toilet paper that is used at some commercial establishments you should know that paper is not paper.

Even my butt knows - paper is not paper.

Same thing with paper media in an oil filter.

[Steve C.]

Brad, let there be no misunderstanding I'm not here to contradict your findings nor your personal choice of filters or filter material, that's your choice and I respect your opinion and research. Personally I have no issues with WIX filters nor have I ever had oil related issues with them that I'm aware of, and over 20 years now I've had seven different engine combinations in my Trans Am, from the original RAII 400 engine to a 700 hp/7000 rpm combination.

Onward...........


.

[Sirrotica]

Champ, paper fibers are the same no matter what the outside looks like. The virgin paper has longer strands than does the chopped up re-cycled paper and does a better job as far as a filter media.

You may be one of the people that can't get over using TP as a filter media. I use it on all my cars and I can tell you it works many times better than any full flow filter. The design that Detroit engineers came up with for an oil filter has too many compromises to be effective at doing what a filter should do. That is to remove the most contaminants in one pass. 98% efficiency down to 1 micron the first time through.

No commercial filter approaches 1 micron and at a 98% ratio it's apples and oranges. There is no comparison.

Cut open a full flow filter and remove the media 4 inches of pleated paper somewhere between 24-36 inches long. 1-2 Sq ft of filter area. Compare to 300 feet of TP about 100 sq feet of area. Which has more area and capacity to filter oil? Again apples and oranges.

Anyone that has an aversion to using TP as a filter media is welcome to use the factory designed filters as they see fit. I know that the by pass filters flat out work and have used my own vehicles as a demo to myself that a diesel 6.5 TD can safely run 25,000 miles without changing oil by using a superior filter.

FYI. after making my living as a mechanic for 45 years, I would never attempt this with ANY full flow filter, no matter whose name was on it.

By pass filters work just as well as the ads say they do, It's proven by respected people in the industry. As well as the test I did on my own diesel truck, the test I did was real world and not in a lab. I needed to prove the theory sound to myself so I could feel good about selling filters that I would, and did use myself.

10,000 miles on the oil in my LS2 GTO and other than it's a little darker in color, it is still transparent with no steaks of black in it.

If anyone has a diesel truck and wants to run their oil 25,000 miles and close to 5 years with factory designed full flow filters only, be my guest. You do that and I will concede that full flow filters are every bit as good. I doubt there will be any takers when you have to risk your own engine to prove it works.

[SpencerHSS]

Hey guys, my names Spencer, I work for LSi, the makers of Hot Shot's Secret. We purchased the Frantz Filter from the Frantz family in 2014. Since then, we have designed two new kinds of filter media, improved the design of the base plate and developed aluminum caps for returning the oil to keep you from having to drill and tap into your engine.

A fear for many is deterioration of the filter, and the thought of toilet paper flowing through your engine is enough to give most guys nightmares. While in the past our filters used toilet paper, and we have never had the toilet paper deteriorate in any cases we observed, we do not recommend the use of toilet paper as it does not provide the quality filtration that our media does today. In fact, most OEM filters to this day are nothing more than thin cardboard or colored coffee filter material. The longer OEM filters are used and the more particles they catch, the less they filter. Most pressurized lubrication systems incorporate an overpressure relief valve built into the filter to allow oil to bypass the filter altogether if its flow restriction is excessive (either filter is clogged or cold weather is thickening oil), to protect the engine from oil starvation. The spring inside allows more and more oil to pass through until it does not filter at all.

We created a cellulose and synthetic media, which removes any need for concern of deterioration. It works great in diesel and gasoline engines; and we've had great success with cars, trucks, planes, generators, agricultural and industrial applications.


To help answer Firebob's question, "What micron size would offer adequate protection? 21 microns sound ok?"
A human hair is roughly 75 microns in diameter, with that in mind, engines have incredibly small clearances in a couple places, like between bearings, and taken from one of our competitors: "engine oil flows between wear-sensitive surfaces that usually have clearances between 2 and 22 microns. It is contaminants in this size range that pose the greatest threat as they can slip between moving components, causing a great deal of wear."

Here's test results taken from a third party, they ran oil for 4,700 miles with just the OEM filter, then installed a Frantz with that same oil and ran it for 200 miles, then we sampled brand new oil. That brand new oil we tested would cause more wear to your engine than the 5,000 mile old oil, that's some serious protection! If youre not one for pretty pictures we have the results as a pdf here: http://www.frantzfilters.com/wp-cont...ntzResults.pdf


Frantz Filters remove carbon soot, gum residues, water, abrasives, and small metal pieces without degrading the detergents and additives in the oil. Obviously diesel engines are harsher on the engine oil and get a lot dirtier, but the filters work great on gasoline engines, and I'd highly recommend one to someone who wants to protect the investment of a new or rebuilt engine. Theyve been around since 1953 so they dont look out of place on the old classics! Our salesman Don installed one on his AMC Rambler earlier in the fall and took it to a car show and alot of guys remembered the Frantz name. Bo is our ASE Master Tech, and Mike is the Frantz Brand Manager, our phone number is 1-800-341-6516 (toll free) if you have any questions. There's more info on www.frantzfilters.com

Sorry for the book gentlemen, hope this information helps. I'll have to go check out the rest of the forum, Ive helped wrench on a friend's Road Runner, and my grandpa has a convertible Le Mans, definitely have a soft spot for Pontiacs. Happy motoring fellas!

[panhead59]

Personally I don't see what the big deal is all about. I have changed oil in plenty of my cars at the recommended intervals with no problems. If a "cheap" oil filter changed regularly provides enough protection for the engine to last well past 200,000 miles, what's the problem? The rest of the car is worn out anyway. I have NEVER had an engine problem due to "dirty" oil. Not arguing, just saying.....

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by panhead59

Personally I don't see what the big deal is all about. I have changed oil in plenty of my cars at the recommended intervals with no problems. If a "cheap" oil filter changed regularly provides enough protection for the engine to last well past 200,000 miles, what's the problem? The rest of the car is worn out anyway. I have NEVER had an engine problem due to "dirty" oil. Not arguing, just saying.....

If you choose to use the factory maintenance schedule and it works for you that's fine. People with diesel pickups don't usually scrap them at 200,000 miles and even though I've always lived in the rust belt I tend to hold onto cars and even swap engines into other good bodies.

Thing is at 200,000 miles the engine doesn't have to be worn out with better filtration, anyone wanting to drive their car further can certainly do so. I don't plan on scrapping my 05 GTO at 200,000 miles nor rebuilding the engine at that mileage.

Fleet owners want as much mileage as they can get out of their units and less down time for repairs and maintenance.

Better filtration does not cost you money, it saves money and time.
I did the crunched figures on my 93 6.5 TD a few months ago and my filter had paid for itself in a 4 year period with 25,000 miles on what I've saved on oil changes and filters. Not to mention it was done with no risk to the internal engine parts.

I can change the filter in under 5 minutes from the top of the vehicle, no jacking it up an crawling under it in the winter etc. I also have no need to keep running to the parts store to get 5-6 quarts of oil and a filter very month or so. And trips to a oil drop off point for the waste oil. It simplifies my life and since the filter system is paid for it will now return me money on my investment. If you buy something else the oil filtration system adapts to any car so you just remove it and install it on your new ride, no need to buy it again.

If you want to keep doing the same rituals you've learned, then a by pass filtration system isn't for you.

[Firebob]

I have to wonder that if the filter media is working that good in a by-pass filter system, how hard does it work the pump to push enough oil through?

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Champ, paper fibers are the same no matter what the outside looks like.

Brad

You missed my point.

What I was trying to say is that not all paper is alike. My comment about toilet paper was referring to exactly that - toilet paper for it's intended use.

When I need to wipe, I think I get a much better job done with a higher quality paper that I choose to buy vs the ultra thin stuff that is provided in the rest rooms of many convenience stores.

If all paper is the same, how would a sheet of 20 pound bond paper work to wipe with? How about gift wrap?

Paper has many variations. I believe that paper filter media is not all the same.

[Steve C.]

If you choose to use the factory maintenance schedule and it works for you that's fine.

And with today's cars using emission/'cleaner' burning vehicles we don't need to change the oil every 3000 miles.

How often do we change the oil on many of our older v-8 hobby cars ? Limited street use, a few thousand miles a year. Fair weather driving. No dust storms. Down the drag strip on occasions.


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