[grnmnstr]

Luhn Oil pump.

53 psi @ 7800 RPM. 960 HP.

Bearings look new after teardown

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by grnmnstr

Luhn Oil pump.

53 psi @ 7800 RPM. 960 HP.

Bearings look new after teardown

Well HELL thats interesting!


GTO George

[Hooter]

I have a Luhn pump also. Consistent 55-57 psi on the dyno from idle to 7,000 rpm.

[Allan Runions2]

George I had a problem with my Butler Pro pump and have since (Last year) switched to the Luhn pump. I just recently ran into other problems but it wasnt the pump.

[Steve C.]

Atated- "I don't normally hang around the race section but what about the Precision pumps?"

I bought one of their 80 lb pumps for my current 505 engine, it makes peak power at 6000 rpm. I've had no issues with it. Street use.

.

[Formulas]

Anyone ever take a 80 psi. Pump and put the smaller ball bearing in it ? I wonder what the pressure results would be.

[Rusty4cyl]

I also run a Luhn pump. Works great, highly recommended. Thanks Rusty

[GTOGUY32]

Hi Guys,

I don't often talk on this forum (maybe less than 5 times). Steve C suggested I reply to this thread. I have had 2 Butler Pro Pumps and had issues with both. After doing a take apart study on the pumps, I found that many of the "modifications" either did not exist OR were counter productive to mitigating cavitation or high flow.

After many discussions with David Butler, he agreed with my synopsis. I sent him a comprehensive write up. Butler has contacted their pump supplier and I believe Butler is in discussions with Mark Luhn to start carrying his pumps due to Mark's higher quality pumps that DO include REAL upgrades.

I have nothing but GREAT things to say about Butler's customer service. If you have an issue or questions, give them a call.

I also have GREAT things to say about Mark Luhn, He's one of the nicest guys I have met in this hobby and knows his stuff.

I am running a Luhn Pump now. My oil pressure is about 100 psi at 6500 rpm. I know that sounds high, because it is. After a couple dozen dyno pulls on my 505 IA2, we pulled four main caps and four rod caps to inspect bearings. They were near perfect and new in appearance. SO, if your oil filter can handle the pressure and you don't mind losing a few HP do to the parasitic loss, and a little more stress on your dizzy gear, high oil pressure is not a bad thing for the bearings.

Back to what others have said about 50 or so PSI at very high RPM, I believe it doesn't take much pressure to float the bearings. Don't forget, measuring pressure at the back of the engine is where the pressure source begins. As oil travels down the oil galleries and bleeds out of the bearings, the pressure at the front of the engine will be less. I have some data I collected on the dyno to show this and by how much with my setup.

Here's my engine on the dyno:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymWvrHM7Z4o

-Dave

[GTOGEORGE]

Well heck that sure sucks about Butler oil pumps, I guess I just wasted $170 and 3 days!


GTO George

[GTOGUY32]

George,

The Butler Pump isn't much more than a plain old Melling, based on what I found. It's still a pump that should get the job done, especially in an engine that is not spinning to the moon with a lot of HP. In my opinion, it isn't worth the extra $100+ over a stock Melling. I had oiling issues I was trying to resolve and the Butler pump did not help resolve the issues, but I was able to resolve them by going to the Luhn Pump, plus some other bearing clearance fixes.

Sorry to hear about your issues. I feel your pain.

Dave

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

Well HELL thats interesting!


GTO George

Good steady flow and no cavitation far more important than pressure. (Most apps...nitro fueled engines have more obstacles to overcome).
The old 10 psi per 1000 rpm "rule" might apply at sub 4000 rpm but if you have very good flow with no sonic waves from cavitation the bearings stay lubed and cool.

Iirc Titan websitehas a good explanation of what cavitation does.

Luhn has done their homework with their pump pickup design and improvements to the Melling pump. IMO if you've been doing ok with stockish internal pump this should be a worthwhile improvement. Next step would be an external pump with a good pickup design like Luhn's. Dry sump being the ultimate.

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by GTOGUY32

George,

The Butler Pump isn't much more than a plain old Melling, based on what I found. It's still a pump that should get the job done, especially in an engine that is not spinning to the moon with a lot of HP. In my opinion, it isn't worth the extra $100+ over a stock Melling. I had oiling issues I was trying to resolve and the Butler pump did not help resolve the issues, but I was able to resolve them by going to the Luhn Pump, plus some other bearing clearance fixes.

Sorry to hear about your issues. I feel your pain.

Dave

I've had no oiling issues just broke my oil pump and shaft and needed to replace them.


GTO George

[Dragncar]

Its not hard to take a Melling and blueprint it yourself. The you have a Butler "Pro" pump.
Whittmore used to take the 80lb SD pumps and cut either 1./2 a coil or 1 1/2 coils out of the pump spring. I gave him a 70lb pump. Played with shims too.
Why cant we have a manufacturer make us a inexpensive gearoter pump like Fords have ? Better design than a spur pump.

[BruceWilkie]

Info on cavitation and how it can break pumps and/or shafts can be be found within these links.
Worthwhile reading!

http://www.titanspeed.com/content/pump/pump_techtalk01

http://www.titanspeed.com/content/pump/pump_techtalk02

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

I've had no oiling issues just broke my oil pump and shaft and needed to replace them.


GTO George

Cavitation is likely the cause of your pump and shaft breakage. See links I just posted.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Its not hard to take a Melling and blueprint it yourself. The you have a Butler "Pro" pump.
Whittmore used to take the 80lb SD pumps and cut either 1./2 a coil or 1 1/2 coils out of the pump spring. I gave him a 70lb pump. Played with shims too.
Why cant we have a manufacturer make us a inexpensive gearoter pump like Fords have ? Better design than a spur pump.

Luhn's website looks like they are going to do a gerotor pump.

Titan offers a nice one for Pontiac with improved drive etc.. But it takes oil pan mods to use it. OR use their external pump.

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Cavitation is likely the cause of your pump and shaft breakage. See links I just posted.

NO......that's NOT what happened, I had a problem and it's fixed now. This **** isn't rocket science, sometimes STUFF just happens!
The only problem I have is getting 70 psi out of the Butler pump I have.

GTO George

[BruceWilkie]

So...how did you end up with a broken pump and shaft???

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

So...how did you end up with a broken pump and shaft???

I had a problem and its resolved now......but thanks for asking. Like I said STUFF just happens when your racing. The ONLY problem I have is the oil pump I have now........NO other issues.


GTO George

[johnta1]

Shimming the spring should increase the pressure, unless the length of spring/housing isn't letting spring close the ball?