[dataway]

I once had a very, very reputable F1 level machine shop bore a vintage motorcycle race engine for me. These engines are steel sleeved aluminum blocks. I neglected to ask them to use a single point boring head ... they spun the liner in the block. Not really their fault as this particular engine was known to have fairly loose liners. Problem was, the liners have a big step/flange, which is notched for the head bolts so it would have to be pressed out and back in the right place. By which time clearance usually opens up enough that you lose too much heat transfer to the block walls.

Luckily these cylinder blocks were a dime a dozen

[AMX guy]

That makes more sense.

I don't care what it costs . besides if I went out and bought another block it might be cracked too. what's a few hundred bucks to keep a numbers matching tri power car together.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by AMX guy

It's not hard to understand if a gasket is considered adequate to hold the sleeve down.

If it needs a shelf on the bottom to hold it logic dictates it needs a lock on the top to hold it. not a fiber gasket.

Obviously it works, but it's not obvious why.

Let me explain this one more time: the press fit on the sleeve holds it in place, nothing more. The lip on the bottom of the bore is to locate the sleeve, nothing more. The head gasket and the cylinder head are inconsequential to holding the sleeve in place, but what do I know? I’ve only installed several hundred of them in gas and diesel blocks....

[AMX guy]

I asked a logical question and some people were nice enough to answer it without being condescending.

But thanks for reminding me how some other people can be.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by AMX guy

I asked a logical question and some people were nice enough to answer it without being condescending.

But thanks for reminding me how some other people can be.

Nothing logical about your question UNLESS you are assuming a cylinder sleeve operates like a "dry" or" wet" cylinder LINER in a diesel engine. Both dry and wet cylinder LINERS have a liner protrusion height that is checked before and after machining the seal bosses for the upper and lower sealing o-rings. Once the liner protrusion height is determined( from a new liner), shims are installed under the liner to adjust it to the proper height. When the cylinder head (or heads) is installed and torqued, the liner "seats" the o-rings sealing them in the bosses. Liner protrusion height is extremely critical in "wet" liner engines. Cylinder repair sleeves do NOT operate this way...

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by dataway

I once had a very, very reputable F1 level machine shop bore a vintage motorcycle race engine for me. These engines are steel sleeved aluminum blocks. I neglected to ask them to use a single point boring head ... they spun the liner in the block. Not really their fault as this particular engine was known to have fairly loose liners. Problem was, the liners have a big step/flange, which is notched for the head bolts so it would have to be pressed out and back in the right place. By which time clearance usually opens up enough that you lose too much heat transfer to the block walls.

Luckily these cylinder blocks were a dime a dozen

I' ve never used a boring bar cutting head that had more than 1 cutter(usually CBNs). We bored a lot of sleeves in 4 cylinder Mercruisers (aluminum block, steel cylinder liners); never had one spin.

[dataway]

Pretty sure they said their boring machine had three cutters. This was a very small bore also, little more than 2". "Boring Bar" was probably not the right terminology to use. Of course my boring head on the BP only has one bar/cutter. Knowing this place they probably have some triple cutting dial-a-bore space age bling. But ... they have since ceased to operate in the US and are back in the UK I think.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by dataway

Pretty sure they said their boring machine had three cutters. This was a very small bore also, little more than 2". "Boring Bar" was probably not the right terminology to use. Of course my boring head on the BP only has one bar/cutter. Knowing this place they probably have some triple cutting dial-a-bore space age bling. But ... they have since ceased to operate in the US and are back in the UK I think.

Hmmm...every boring machine I ever used had a single cutter whether it was a Rottler, Berco, Storm-Vulcan or Quik-Way.

[mgarblik]

If your motorcycle bore was only 2" or so, I wonder if they used a boring attachment for a regular vertical mill? Then they could have used a single or multiple cutter head. My Rottler purpose built boring machine uses 3 or 4 locating fingers, depending on the cutter head, but only one actual cutting segment. CBN or carbide. We used to install repair sleeves at room temp with a sledge hammer. About 10 years we started using dry ice on the sleeves and an oven to heat the blocks to about 250 degrees F. The sleeves slide in with almost no force, dry. No failures so far.

[AMX guy]

It is logical to assume if a sleeve needs a step on the bottom to hold it it would need a solid stop on the top. it is illogical to assume someone who has never worked with or installed a dry sleeve would know it does not need it.

Given the fact I was told by a well known Pontiac engine builder a sleeve would crack the head it would have been illogical for me to not ask the question.

[77 TRASHCAN]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Hmmm...every boring machine I ever used had a single cutter whether it was a Rottler, Berco, Storm-Vulcan or Quik-Way.

and Van Norman.....

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by AMX guy

It is logical to assume if a sleeve needs a step on the bottom to hold it it would need a solid stop on the top. it is illogical to assume someone who has never worked with or installed a dry sleeve would know it does not need it.

Given the fact I was told by a well known Pontiac engine builder a sleeve would crack the head it would have been illogical for me to not ask the question.

If you have a step at the bottom, which it should have unless the sleeve is a stepped sleeve, you do not want a step at the top also. Trying to get the distance on that exact to make a perfect seal is not going to happen. With a stepped sleeve, you have a step at the top with no step at the bottom. These type of sleeves go in with less interference, and should not be used in cracked cylinders or cylinders with a breach into the cooling system.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

If you have a step at the bottom, which it should have unless the sleeve is a stepped sleeve, you do not want a step at the top also. Trying to get the distance on that exact to make a perfect seal is not going to happen. With a stepped sleeve, you have a step at the top with no step at the bottom. These type of sleeves go in with less interference, and should not be used in cracked cylinders or cylinders with a breach into the cooling system.

Precisely. All the stepped sleeves I’m familiar with are similar to the Darton interlocking sleeves.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN

and Van Norman.....

I’ve never used a Van Norman. We had Quik-Ways in tech school (very heavy and extremely slow!). I prefer Rottler equipment, especially the CNC controlled units like the F90s.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by AMX guy

It is logical to assume if a sleeve needs a step on the bottom to hold it it would need a solid stop on the top. it is illogical to assume someone who has never worked with or installed a dry sleeve would know it does not need it.

Given the fact I was told by a well known Pontiac engine builder a sleeve would crack the head it would have been illogical for me to not ask the question.

First, I owe you an apology for being way too gruff. The step at the bottom of cylinder does NOT “hold” the sleeve. The step acts as a stop and helps support the bottom of the sleeve. It keeps a machinist from driving the sleeve too deep into the bore. Press fit is what actually holds the sleeve in place. Some have said .001-.0015, others up .006. My preference is .003-.004 press. I can’t explain why this “noted” Pontiac builder would say the sleeves crack heads unless the sleeves he had installed lacked proper press and actually moved. In my experience, once a sleeve is properly installed only two things will remove it: heat (as in 750 degrees F) and cutting the sleeve out with a boring machine.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

If your motorcycle bore was only 2" or so, I wonder if they used a boring attachment for a regular vertical mill? Then they could have used a single or multiple cutter head. My Rottler purpose built boring machine uses 3 or 4 locating fingers, depending on the cutter head, but only one actual cutting segment. CBN or carbide. We used to install repair sleeves at room temp with a sledge hammer. About 10 years we started using dry ice on the sleeves and an oven to heat the blocks to about 250 degrees F. The sleeves slide in with almost no force, dry. No failures so far.

What model, Mike? As for using dry ice to install sleeves, management always looked at me like I had three heads every time I suggested this...