[torqhead]

Catching up... the pickup tube on the oil pump.

I would think on the dyno it probably starved it of oil at the upper RPM range during test. What that does in more of a layman's term is it doesn't feed enough oil through the engine and effectively parts like the crankshaft to the bearings start to heat up and eventually they can damage the parts real bad or cease and "weld" them together for lack of better way to describe it.

My assumption is during the first dyno test, at idle and a bit above idle there probably was oil pressure and no issues on the dyno. The pump is actually submerged in the oil low enough in the oil pan that it shouldn't have had a problem picking up oil. But when the motor was tested and ran up to 5000 RPM or so I'm sure you're getting down to the amount of oil flowing in the engine it may have caused the oil pump to suck in some air. They probably saw the oil pressure drop and hence why they knew what happened and opened it up and said more than a few cuss words. If all of that is the case, it's an awsh!t moment and someone had a bad day! Good thing it was found there!

As said before, just hoping to shed some light on what may have happened but I sure hope the problem can be found before doing any further damage.

[tom s]

Welding a oil pump shaft?I assume you mean the pickup?Tom

[1967Tempest]

Once HWYSTR455 gets his hands on it, I’d like to see the after video.

[Va68goat]

krisr,

We did not change the timing at all. I was told to leave the timing as it was shipped and that's what we did. The distributor is an MSD Ready to run. I do not have a box.

Formulajones,

If the timing was set at the dyno and was not adjusted, was not bumped in any way, why wouldn't the motor just crank right up? It just ran on the dyno not even a month ago.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

torqhead,

-
** Here is a question that I have that I can come up with an answer. For arguments sake, if the noise we are hearing NOW is the same noise that we heard BEFORE it went back to Arizona but was not heard on the dyno..How can anyone explain the video of the bad distributor bushing and the damage that is said to have occurred? If this is an ignition problem, vacuum problem or even a bad adjustment in the carb...why does the knocking noise sound exactly the same as before but now there's a bad MSD bushing, bearings, piston ring etc? I don't know enough about cars to even make up an answer for that question**

Originally Posted by Va68goat

krisr,

We did not change the timing at all. I was told to leave the timing as it was shipped and that's what we did. The distributor is an MSD Ready to run. I do not have a box.

Formulajones,

If the timing was set at the dyno and was not adjusted, was not bumped in any way, why wouldn't the motor just crank right up? It just ran on the dyno not even a month ago.

It's all pretty easy to explain. In Tuscon you're at about 2500 feet elevation. The higher up we go here, the more these engines can use timing. On the dyno the initial setting doesn't matter much because we are just looking for total timing where the engine makes best power. Vacuum advance isn't even used, and idle quality isn't that much of a concern and quite frankly while on the dyno the engine doesn't spend that much time idling anyway in most cases.

So you get the engine back, now you're near sea level, things are going to change a bit. Total timing where the engine made best power will probably be the same but how fast it comes in as well as where you put initial timing is likely going to change a bit when this engine is put in service. Toss in the fact you should also be running a vacuum advance unit, which also isn't used on the dyno, and it's a fairly good bet the engine simply may not want that much initial timing or vacuum advance added. The noise is dead nuts on the same thing I hear here with too much idle timing. It's only ever occurred idling and pretty much goes away with RPM, just as in your case, and never had any detrimental affects with this happening other than it can be annoying to some.

The noise the previous instance also makes sense and several of us have discussed this recently. With the bushing in the distributor eating itself, that shaft is moving all over the place. There is no way it can control timing doing that, so the timing is just everywhere and most likely over advanced in all conditions. Which explains why the rings had moly flaking off, that's typical of an engine with too much timing and detonation while under a load. That was just a fluke instance of an MSD part failure that isn't common, but things happen. Now the noise is back and exactly the same. Not because of a bad distributor bushing, but because there is likely too much idle timing setup in that distributor.. It's easy enough to change around and experiment with. The nice thing about those MSD's is they come complete with a timing chart and various bushings that bolt into the breaker plate to set the initial and total curves where you want them, and I've found those charts to be pretty darn close to accurate. 5 minute fix. If you're running vacuum advance, leave that unplugged for now until that part is dialed in, then slowly bring in some vacuum advance later.

[grivera]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

It's all pretty easy to explain. In Tuscon you're at about 2500 feet elevation. The higher up we go here, the more these engines can use timing. On the dyno the initial setting doesn't matter much because we are just looking for total timing where the engine makes best power. Vacuum advance isn't even used, and idle quality isn't that much of a concern and quite frankly while on the dyno the engine doesn't spend that much time idling anyway in most cases.

So you get the engine back, now you're near sea level, things are going to change a bit. Total timing where the engine made best power will probably be the same but how fast it comes in as well as where you put initial timing is likely going to change a bit when this engine is put in service. Toss in the fact you should also be running a vacuum advance unit, which also isn't used on the dyno, and it's a fairly good bet the engine simply may not want that much initial timing or vacuum advance added. The noise is dead nuts on the same thing I hear here with too much idle timing. It's only ever occurred idling and pretty much goes away with RPM, just as in your case, and never had any detrimental affects with this happening other than it can be annoying to some.

The noise the previous instance also makes sense and several of us have discussed this recently. With the bushing in the distributor eating itself, that shaft is moving all over the place. There is no way it can control timing doing that, so the timing is just everywhere and most likely over advanced in all conditions. Which explains why the rings had moly flaking off, that's typical of an engine with too much timing and detonation while under a load. That was just a fluke instance of an MSD part failure that isn't common, but things happen. Now the noise is back and exactly the same. Not because of a bad distributor bushing, but because there is likely too much idle timing setup in that distributor.. It's easy enough to change around and experiment with. The nice thing about those MSD's is they come complete with a timing chart and various bushings that bolt into the breaker plate to set the initial and total curves where you want them, and I've found those charts to be pretty darn close to accurate. 5 minute fix. If you're running vacuum advance, leave that unplugged for now until that part is dialed in, then slowly bring in some vacuum advance later.

Good troubleshooting advice! Do you by any chance have a video of the scenario you describe- an engine making noise at idle with timing too advanced?

[krisr]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

krisr,

We did not change the timing at all. I was told to leave the timing as it was shipped and that's what we did. The distributor is an MSD Ready to run. I do not have a box.

Formulajones,

If the timing was set at the dyno and was not adjusted, was not bumped in any way, why wouldn't the motor just crank right up? It just ran on the dyno not even a month ago.

Ok if it's an RTR distributor, polarity shouldn't be a problem.

Doesn't matter if you think the timing wasn't bumped in transit etc, step number 1 (i.e. standard practice) is to make sure the distributor is timed to the crankshaft BEFORE ANYTHING as very small changes at the distributor can be very big at the crankshaft. Check it with a light on #1 and if it's out, loosen the distributor and turn it until it's around 15-18*BTDC, lock the distributor down.

You'd be stunned at the number of EFI motors I've fixed because the timing has never been verified to what the ECU is commanding, carb/distributor is no different and spark timing is VERY important.

[Va68goat]

Formulajones,

Thats the best comment you've made on this thread. Feel free to call me if you ever want to discuss this motor. Back on topic.....

[krisr]

Has the timing been checked since you put it back in and ran it? Also Are you running an MSD box by chance or is your distributor a ready to run?

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by krisr

Has the timing been checked since you put it back in and ran it? Also Are you running an MSD box by chance or is your distributor a ready to run?

It's been a long running question by many. Only answer I've seen is that it's how they received the engine from the dyno. It all should really be checked over. It was missed in the beginning of this thread as well and turned out to be the issue.

Like I've said, that noise is very common in many engines I've had here, and it turns out to be engines that don't really like a lot of ignition lead at idle. Whether it's too much initial, or a combination of initial with vacuum advance added, creates a pre ignition knocking noise, mostly heard at idle. Notice in the video you can't here it when it's revved. I came to the conclusion that some engines are just more efficient than others and don't want or need a bunch of initial timing, and this is likely one of those engines. With tight quench, a good cylinder head with an excellent combustion chamber, a bit of compression etc... On the dyno it doesn't matter much, but things change when put into service.

That's why I've mentioned in the beginning of this thread I'd want to know exactly what those numbers are and where they occur. Most likely you'll end up putting the smaller stop bushing in that MSD for more advance so you can back down the initial timing and put the total where it made best power for Paul on the dyno.

[Va68goat]

Formulajones,

Thanks for that information. That was informative and helps me understand a lot more.

gtofreek,

There is a reason that we never did anything on this motor without clearing it with you. NOT ONE thing was changed, altered, switched out, inspected without your suggestion or approval. That included the timing, going to a thicker oil, switching out rockers, lifters, pushrods, flex plate and having the heads inspected. Nothing fell on deaf ears other than my texts when I questioned you about certain things. This is why I have saved every text since I started this build.

I'm not going to have a pissing contest on a forum and post screenshots of your texts....like "The windage tray thing, I just plain messed up on and I'm sorry about that". Or "I still beat myself up over the windage tray. Can't believe that I messed that up after building hundreds of them". The deal with the carb was made because of the windage tray mistake that YOU said YOU made and I was charged for it before I could get my motor back. Otherwise, I wouldn't want, need or buy a $1,400 carb for a street car! I also haven't received the receipts that I asked for regarding the piston rings and bearings that were part of the $2,575 invoice that I paid before I could get my motor back. You know the invoice...the one where ALL of the labor charges were "Waived" and were NOT included in the invoice.

As I have said before, I would rather have a conversation more than anything else. Just because I ask questions was never meant to come across as I was accusing anyone of anything. I ask a lot of questions based on my inexperience and lack of knowledge. Due to the motor blowing up on the dyno over a pickup tube that was not secured and fell into the pan, a customer should be able to ask questions without feelings being hurt.

[Va68goat]

JSPONT,

The gas is only a few months old. New gas tank as well. The car wont be started until Hwy455 comes over. I'm not touching this car until someone with some knowledge and experience gets their hands on it!

[JLMounce]

Lots of things can happen in transit. Don't assume anything, at the very least I would verify the simple things you can do right away. Make sure the plugs are seated properly and that the plug wires order pertains correctly to the proper firing order. Get out your timing light and verify that the timing hasn't been moved, readjust as necessary. If there's anything weird happening, verify the balancer is indexed properly with a piston stop.

Have you checked the coil? I'm assuming the engine was not dynoed with your coil, so that's a part that has likely changed from when it ran on the dyno to now in your car. Anything that is different should be checked and verified.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

I didn't want to comment, sounds like a rod/wrist pin knock (the result of detonation very likely here)
If timing isn't set then that is very likely.
Wait for someone with a light to set timing. Usually second thing I do when I start an engine, then top off/cap the rad. Oil pressure first check!
I wouldn't start it till you set the timing, definitely don't let it idle that low.

I think your going to be good to go!

[Va68goat]

krisr,

Thanks Krisr. I'm pretty sure we're going to get this done tomorrow. I'll post a video!

[Paul E]

You pretty much went through everything on this. Did you change the distributor cap? VERY long shot but could have some tracking inside from past rubbing, small crack (lower humidity in Arizona) or debris??? Just an inexpensive and quick trial?
Good Luck!
Paul

[dataway]

Is there a video of the engine running on the dyno without making the noise?

[gtofreek]

I showed Joe's video to another machinist who owned his own machine shop for over 25 years. I suggested nothing, just asked him to watch and see what he thinks the noise might be. As soon as it started knosking, the first words out of his mouth is "that's spark knock". I personally have never heard spark knock at an idle so I asked him to clarify. He said the engine is running too slow to deal with the amount of timing it has and it's causing a spark knock. Spark knock is NOT a machanical knock[which would explain why I found nothing in the engine that would cause a mechanical knock]. It's an ignition knock. This has been suggested many times in this thread but seems to fall on deaf ears.

I pulled the distributor when I got the engine back from dyno. I checked the busing which was fine and I restabbed the distributor BUT had no way of setting the timing. That is why I wrote on a piece of tape on the carb plate that the timing needs to be reset. It was only close enough to get the engine to start and run.

You need to get the idle RPM up and not down at 400-500 RPM. That's just ridiculously slow for an engine with this much cam in it. I only hear the knock at this really low idle. Pick the idle up, set the timing as I wrote on the tape, and disconnect the vacuum advance for the distributor and plug the vacuum port on the carb., then see if the noise is still present. I bet it won't be there.

Tighten up that alternator belt also. It's way too loose.

As far as the windage tray spacing is concerned, I said it before and I'll say it again, the witness marks Joe and his friends saw are the witness marks I made when I first turned the engine over by hand. That is why I shimmed the tray in the first place. The rod bolts were just barely touching which is why the marks were so minimal. THE ROD BOLTS WERE NOT TOUCHING THE WINDAGE TRAY ONCE JOE GOT THE ENGINE! Which is why the noise was still present after they reshimmed it. Don't see why I should have to pay $950 for something that wasn't a problem in the first place. They saw the marks and just assumed they were fresh and causing the noise. I couldn't see the marks clear enough in the pic I was sent, but after seeing the marks in person, they were the same marks I remember making when I first discovered the bolts touching it.

I feel once the timing and idle speed have been dealt with, the knocking noise will be non-existent.

[torqhead]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

I showed Joe's video to another machinist who owned his own machine shop for over 25 years. I suggested nothing, just asked him to watch and see what he thinks the noise might be. As soon as it started knosking, the first words out of his mouth is "that's spark knock". I personally have never heard spark knock at an idle so I asked him to clarify. He said the engine is running too slow to deal with the amount of timing it has and it's causing a spark knock. Spark knock is NOT a machanical knock[which would explain why I found nothing in the engine that would cause a mechanical knock]. It's an ignition knock. This has been suggested many times in this thread but seems to fall on deaf ears.

I pulled the distributor when I got the engine back from dyno. I checked the busing which was fine and I restabbed the distributor BUT had no way of setting the timing. That is why I wrote on a piece of tape on the carb plate that the timing needs to be reset. It was only close enough to get the engine to start and run.

You need to get the idle RPM up and not down at 400-500 RPM. That's just ridiculously slow for an engine with this much cam in it. I only hear the knock at this really low idle. Pick the idle up, set the timing as I wrote on the tape, and disconnect the vacuum advance for the distributor and plug the vacuum port on the carb., then see if the noise is still present. I bet it won't be there.

Tighten up that alternator belt also. It's way too loose.


I feel once the timing and idle speed have been dealt with, the knocking noise will be non-existent.

Do this!!! Just validated the timing is not set on this motor correctly.

[Va68goat]

He must have been typing as I was but I had a feeling that question would be answered.