[64speed]

Let me start off by saying I have an experienced Pontiac engine builder that I trust. Wayne Sless Racing engines in Greenwood South Carolina. I started out with the idea that after the machine work was done wayne and I could take a Saturday and I would do the assembly with him watching so I could get the experience but most of you guys pointed out and correctly so that it might be a potential way to end a good friendship if something went wrong and that I should just let him build it. Providing all the parts except the pushrods and maybe a few other nit picky items he quoted me 1500 to build it and break it in with his engine stand. Now there is a place about 150 miles from here in the lower part of the state that advertises in a lot of national magazines and they always have a picture of a Pontiac and a mopar in their adds so I called them up just to inquire about their services. They will break it in AND dyno it for not much more than I was gonna pay wayne. What do you think? Friendship or dyno time? They are dynoing it with their carb and distributor and their headers not my sniper and dual sync so will the numbers be accurate with my final setup? Is it worth the extra money to get a dyno tune that won’t be using all your final parts? Can you really put a price on friendship and known experience. Wayne just built a 421 for my friends 2+2 and you would think it’s a rocket.

[NeighborsComplaint]

I would never rebuild my own shortblock again given these prices:

http://www.cmengines.com/Engines/Dyn...0/Default.aspx

[azbirds]

I like the way they call them small block and big block. ��

[hurryinhoosier62]

I'm too picky. I prefer knowing exactly what my clearances are. If the engines goes to hell, it's my fault. There's no one to argue with.

[NeighborsComplaint]

If you have the tools to measure that's fine. If you are a plasti-gauge guy, you're better off buying a short block.

[chiphead]

CME is north of me. I've never heard anything bad about them, just that they do a lot of mass-rebuilder work. My wife's cousin is a mechanic for a local shop that does a fair amount of engine replacements. When a customer needs a stock engine and wants something better than a junkard pullout, he exchanges the core with CME for a reman. They also do crane engines, but I've no experience with them.

You'd have to be very clear that you expect a full custom engine and not a basic reman when talking with them. I'd be curious what build and dyno services they really can do, since they are fairly close to me.

[64-3Deuces]

Originally Posted by azbirds

I like the way they call them small block and big block. ��

I noticed that too. Right there that makes me wonder about their Poncho knowledge.

[tom s]

My guy(and other I have used)charge $1000 to assm a V8 engine.I used to pay $500 to dyno my engines(Joe Sherman died).I REALLY like to use a engine guy that has his own machine shop(except for crank work)as if I have a issue its one house to deal with.Machine work and all parts are Xtra.FWIW,Tom

[Formulas]

Take all that chevy build experience you have and build it yourself, you check rod clearance the same main clearance the same put the rings on the pistons the same ... the differences are not rocket science

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by 64-3Deuces

I noticed that too. Right there that makes me wonder about their Poncho knowledge.

You guys are nit pickers. Very simle way to distinguish the small displacement engines (326/350) from the large displacement engines (400/455). Doesn't mean they don't know there are no physical difference between bore and stroke.

[pggto]

I have a good friend with a machine shop. Has the ability to do the complete engine including dyno. I'm capable of doing the assembly work, but decided to let him do the complete engine and I trust him. If theres a failure he knows exactly what was done, the specs, and that he did it right, or possibly wrong. We've been good friends for almost 40 yrs, that extra $1000 to 1200 is worth his experience and to maintain the friendship if anything bad happens, even though I know he knows I'm capable. I'm sure we would be good if there were problems, but ya never know how money can change people.

I'm having mine dynoed with all my parts. I would question having it done with someone else's parts, might run completely different when your stuff is on the engine.

[ho428]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

You guys are nit pickers. Very simle way to distinguish the small displacement engines (326/350) from the large displacement engines (400/455). Doesn't mean they don't know there are no physical difference between bore and stroke.

Some older guys I was around many moons ago referred to the 3.25 main engines as big blocks so I give some people the benefit of doubt, but when they call a 400 a big block, that's when I'll

[llwta76]

My nephew had a Pontiac 462 built by them about six yrs ago and, as best as I can recall, he was lukewarm on the final product. If it were me I would approach them with caution. I'll try and get in touch with him for you and get more info on these guys. Larry

[llwta76]

I would stick with a Pontiac only builder that will take the time and has the experience to do it right. There are a few on this board. I just finished talking to my nephew re: CME. He says stay away from them if you want a build you are going to be happy with. His 462 done by them was pushing oil all over the valve covers by 500 street miles! FWIW

[Jerry H.]

I have a friend that restores GTOAA 'Best of Show' and Gold Award winning GTO's, mostly round port cars. He had 3 RA IV cars at his shop the last time I was there. He uses CME for all his builds and has for several years. He would not be using them if they were building problem engines.

[64speed]

Originally Posted by llwta76

I would stick with a Pontiac only builder that will take the time and has the experience to do it right. There are a few on this board. I just finished talking to my nephew re: CME. He says stay away from them if you want a build you are going to be happy with. His 462 done by them was pushing oil all over the valve covers by 500 street miles! FWIW

Wayne is not a Pontiac only builder but he knows Pontiacs. He is the one that cleaned up and checked my block and told me I’d need oversized cam bearings. I think I am gonna stick with him because I have seen his work and know that if I even had so much as a tick he would bust his ass to make it right. I was just tempted by the dyno. We don’t have an engine dyno near me but we do have a chassis dyno so after I got my sniper up and running I could always take it and dial it in there.

[Cliff R]

"They are dynoing it with their carb and distributor and their headers not my sniper and dual sync so will the numbers be accurate with my final setup?"

Yes, correct timing and fuel curves are the same no matter what method you use to get them. So basically not one ounce of power improvement from an electronic TB vs a carburetor, and sometimes they actually make less if they don't have enough CFM for the application or the MAP isn't quite ideal and still needs some additional work to get it there.

As far as doing an engine build yourself vs hiring it out, at least if it isn't up to par in all areas the only person to blame is the owner.

From what I've seen with this sort of thing over the years (general comment) is that folks locate and hire a machine shop to do their machine work and assembly. They assume that just because a guy works in, or owns and machine shop and is also an engine "builder" is that he will know what parts to select, engine parameters (compression ratio, camshaft specs, etc) and it will be a great end result. In reality very, and I mean very few engine "builders", especially those very well versed in racing engines will really know what parts to use to come up with a good end result with your Pontiac street or street/strip engine.

Case in point. Several years ago (and I have dozens of these stories) a customer trailered his car here from quite some distance after having a very expensive 455 built for it by a very well know Pontiac "guru" who also owned a machine shop, had a website pretty much dedicated to Pontiac engines, and even posted on the Pontiac Forums.

The engine was a complete TURD even though it had very good flowing iron heads and pretty decent size HR cam in it. Before it was brought here, quite a few other very knowledgeable folks in the owners area took a stab at making it run better, with little to no improvement.

We did the carb and distributor for it, and they even made two trips back here with nearly everyone on their end claiming they were NOT up to par for this engine build. On the second trip back here I actually took the carb and distributor, installed them on my 455 and went to the track.......and they were FLAWLESS.

The car shows up after the long tow, we fire it up, idles OK, drives OK, but when you went to heavy or full throttle it just wouldn't go. Felt like there were potatoes stuff in the ends of the tail pipes, just a big TURD.

I did a compression test and pulled the drivers side valve cover to take a look around, glanced at the timing marks and watched the intake valve open, etc. Compression was much lower than it should have been, intake valve didn't seem anywhere near opening where it should have.

We pulled the timing cover and there was a Rollmaster 9 keyway set installed. It was advanced two keyways on the bottom sprocket, but still lined up "dot to dot" on the top sprocket instead of up one and back two teeth to establish a correct relationship (early Rollmasters were poorly marked for this).

Anyhow, put it all back together and it was fine, made the power it was supposed to and still working fine for the customer far as we know.

What I suspect happened here is that the "builder" degreed the cam at the "dot to dot" position, then advanced it 2 degrees incorrectly and didn't re-check it. Surprising because this particular builder had been doing this at least 10 years longer than I have and very well known in the Pontiac "community". Anyhow, the story isn't meant to degrade anyone, or boost my abilities, just to show folks that even with the best parts and efforts put into an engine build, unless you are doing it yourself there is a chance things will not go as planned. I could put up dozens of similar stories up here on the same topic......Cliff

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"They are dynoing it with their carb and distributor and their headers not my sniper and dual sync so will the numbers be accurate with my final setup?"

Yes, correct timing and fuel curves are the same no matter what method you use to get them. So basically not one ounce of power improvement from an electronic TB vs a carburetor, and sometimes they actually make less if they don't have enough CFM for the application or the MAP isn't quite ideal and still needs some additional work to get it there.

As far as doing an engine build yourself vs hiring it out, at least if it isn't up to par in all areas the only person to blame is the owner.

From what I've seen with this sort of thing over the years (general comment) is that folks locate and hire a machine shop to do their machine work and assembly. They assume that just because a guy works in, or owns and machine shop and is also an engine "builder" is that he will know what parts to select, engine parameters (compression ratio, camshaft specs, etc) and it will be a great end result. In reality very, and I mean very few engine "builders", especially those very well versed in racing engines will really know what parts to use to come up with a good end result with your Pontiac street or street/strip engine.

Case in point. Several years ago (and I have dozens of these stories) a customer trailered his car here from quite some distance after having a very expensive 455 built for it by a very well know Pontiac "guru" who also owned a machine shop, had a website pretty much dedicated to Pontiac engines, and even posted on the Pontiac Forums.

The engine was a complete TURD even though it had very good flowing iron heads and pretty decent size HR cam in it. Before it was brought here, quite a few other very knowledgeable folks in the owners area took a stab at making it run better, with little to no improvement.

We did the carb and distributor for it, and they even made two trips back here with nearly everyone on their end claiming they were NOT up to par for this engine build. On the second trip back here I actually took the carb and distributor, installed them on my 455 and went to the track.......and they were FLAWLESS.

The car shows up after the long tow, we fire it up, idles OK, drives OK, but when you went to heavy or full throttle it just wouldn't go. Felt like there were potatoes stuff in the ends of the tail pipes, just a big TURD.

I did a compression test and pulled the drivers side valve cover to take a look around, glanced at the timing marks and watched the intake valve open, etc. Compression was much lower than it should have been, intake valve didn't seem anywhere near opening where it should have.

We pulled the timing cover and there was a Rollmaster 9 keyway set installed. It was advanced two keyways on the bottom sprocket, but still lined up "dot to dot" on the top sprocket instead of up one and back two teeth to establish a correct relationship (early Rollmasters were poorly marked for this).

Anyhow, put it all back together and it was fine, made the power it was supposed to and still working fine for the customer far as we know.

What I suspect happened here is that the "builder" degreed the cam at the "dot to dot" position, then advanced it 2 degrees incorrectly and didn't re-check it. Surprising because this particular builder had been doing this at least 10 years longer than I have and very well known in the Pontiac "community". Anyhow, the story isn't meant to degrade anyone, or boost my abilities, just to show folks that even with the best parts and efforts put into an engine build, unless you are doing it yourself there is a chance things will not go as planned. I could put up dozens of similar stories up here on the same topic......Cliff

I can't believe you said that Cliff. As a carb guy, you should know that a properly tuned carb will make more power than fuel injection, unless the carbs airflow is just way less than what is needed. Also, the way the guy I work with[Jeff Koerner] modifies carbs to add more air to the fuel, we have seen as much as 99 HP gain from a carb swap from a bigger carb to a smaller Koerner carb when both had similar A/F ratios. Every time Jeff has tested one of his carbs against fuel injection, his carb always has made a lot more power. Carbs aerate the fuel, fuel injection does not. Aerated fuel burns better than non-aerated fuel, simple as that.



Jeff built and tested a BB Chevy boat engine years ago for Hot Boat Magazine. The customer had the latest, greatest fuel injection system at the time. Engine was first tested with one of Jeffs carbs. It made 640 something HP. Bolted on the fuel injection setup and after tuning it, the best power it made was 617 HP. Customer couldn't believe it.

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

Every time Jeff has tested one of his carbs against fuel injection, his carb always has made a lot more power. Carbs aerate the fuel, fuel injection does not. Aerated fuel burns better than non-aerated fuel, simple as that.

Yes, discussed at length on Speedtalk over the years.
Also.
Annular vs Dogleg, look at the low RPM values especially.
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/carburetor-showdown/

They noted this is application specific -

What we learned from this exercise with this particular engine is that the annular-discharge boosters did a much better job atomizing and distributing fuel and air compared to the downleg boosters. This is especially true at lower engine speeds.

[64speed]

GTOFREEK is going to order my cam and Butler is going to prepare my rotating assembly and head package. The only thing Wayne is doing is degreeing the cam and final assembly, oh and measuring for custom pushrods since I will be going roller. I only brought up Carolina Machine Engine because of the DYNO ability but I do have access to a chassis dyno not too far from me so I will trust Wayne to assemble and warranty it and if it needs tuning besides what I am capable of with the sniper unit I will take it to the chassis dyno