[bobby326]

I have an afr gauge in my 67 Lemans and at idle it reads 16.8-17.5. At cruise at 2K it reads 13.8 ish. Im having a running hot issue, around 220 on hot days and 200 at night when its cooler out. Did all the normal checks, timming is 15 initial. Divider plate is as close as possible without rubbing, flowcooler pump and griffen alluminum rad with mark viii fan. So i was thinking that the afr might be a little lean. Motor is a 67 400 with E heads and 2802 cam. Carb is a holley 780 with #70 front jets. Should i change the jets to get the idle afr more towards the 14.5. Would that move the cruising afr to 11.5-12. Would that be a better aft for idle. 14.5vs 16.5 and cruise 11.5vs13.5. Maybe that would help a little with the temp problem. Did just biy a new rad with 1.25 tubes vs the old 1” tubes. Any help with what afr would be best to aim for would be appreciated. Thank you

[amcmike]

When does it overheat?. Is it @ idle or cruise? Stop and go, or highway? Are you sure your fan is kicking on? Do you have a gauge to see if the thermostat is opening at the right time? Are you running vacuum advance?

Idle is not controlled by the jets, it's controlled by the idle circuit screws. Your jetting is actually already on the rich side, since you're cruise is <<14.7:1. For idle, you are showing on the very lean, so it wouldn't hurt to adjust it down. just to be sure it's not contributing. Being that you don't have a catalytic convertor, you could keep it on the leaner side for a little more fuel economy (target 15 to 15.5:1). If it's still running hot in that range, then afr is not your problem anyway. Make sure when you reset your idle mixture, you do it with the air cleaner in place. Although it's easier to see the idle screws with the air cleaner off, it actually makes a large difference in afr. The air cleaner can smooth out the flow, so what you set with it off, becomes lean, once it's re-installed.

Also, keep in mind, the idle circuit will have a slight effect on the cruise, so you might see a tenth or two drop in afr @ 2k, which is already on the rich side. So definitely don't add more fuel on the primary side than you already have. Running extremely rich could actually cause overheating, plus other issues, like washing down the cylinder walls and diluting your oil with gas. Once you get your idle circuit dialed it, consider dropping to 68 jets in the front, to get your afr @ cruise above 14:1.

[64speed]

Ok I am gonna ask a dumb question honestly cause I have never used a gauge and don’t know. Leaner is higher numbers and richer is lower numbers or vice versa?

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by 64speed

Ok I am gonna ask a dumb question honestly cause I have never used a gauge and don’t know. Leaner is higher numbers and richer is lower numbers or vice versa?

14.7 air to 1 part fuel > leaner

12.8 air to 1 part fuel > richer.

[lust4speed]

I haven't had decent results using the AFR gauge for setting idle mixture and just tune for highest vacuum or highest idle RPM if out on the road helping someone out. The gauge does give great results for cruise and full throttle jetting.

You are already richer than I would jet for, so for now I'd leaving the jetting alone. Having a working vacuum advance will help lower cruise temps and boost mileage.

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by bobby326

Im having a running hot issue, around 220 on hot days and 200 at night when its cooler out... ...with mark viii fan.

When is the fan set to engage and disengage?

Takes a BIG electric fan (or two) to keep a traditional V-8 cool.

[bobby326]

At first the temp will stay at 200 while driving but if i stop and go it will creep up to 220. On hot days it will go right to 220. On cooler days/ nights it will stay at 209-210. Yes fan kicks on at 180 and have manual switch for the 2nd speed. No vac advanced. Msd dis with 6al box. Ill try and adjust the idle air screws to get it a little richer on idle. Should get new rd in day or two If it helps out 5-10 degrees then its going in the right direction. Drove car home last night and hot idle was at 15.8-16.3 afr.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by bobby326

I have an afr gauge in my 67 Lemans and at idle it reads 16.8-17.5. At cruise at 2K it reads 13.8 ish. Im having a running hot issue, around 220 on hot days and 200 at night when its cooler out. Did all the normal checks, timming is 15 initial. Divider plate is as close as possible without rubbing, flowcooler pump and griffen alluminum rad with mark viii fan. So i was thinking that the afr might be a little lean. Motor is a 67 400 with E heads and 2802 cam. Carb is a holley 780 with #70 front jets. Should i change the jets to get the idle afr more towards the 14.5. Would that move the cruising afr to 11.5-12. Would that be a better aft for idle. 14.5vs 16.5 and cruise 11.5vs13.5. Maybe that would help a little with the temp problem. Did just biy a new rad with 1.25 tubes vs the old 1” tubes. Any help with what afr would be best to aim for would be appreciated. Thank you

I personally think 16.8-17.5 is way too lean for idle. That air/fuel ratio WILL cause Idle Temp issues. Especially on a Holley Carb. Carbs work based on air and fuel MASS going thru the engine.

The stoichiometric mixture for a gasoline engine is the ideal ratio of air to fuel that burns all fuel with no excess air. For gasoline fuel, the stoichiometric air–fuel mixture is about 14.7:1 i.e. for every ONE GRAM of FUEL MASS, to 14.7 grams of AIR MASS are required.

You gain nothing by being leaner than 14.7 ratio because there is no FUEL MASS left to burn.
There is a ideal burn rate vs push on the piston for given modes of engine operation.
Think about it. At idle, even with the PCV Valve supplying 3 cfm of Inert Gas to the combustion process you are only using and burning 16 cfm of air and fuel mixture and 3 cfm of Inert gas.

So, again, math wise, if you have a fresh mixture of Air and Fuel equal to 16 cfm and 3 cfm of burned Inert gases and oil mist you get 19 cfm at idle.

Off idle, the burned Inert gases and oil mist continue to be at 3 cfm and the Mass of air and fuel mixture goes up to the maximum fuel capability of the fuel and air control orifices.

So at your 16.8-17.5 mixture ratio you are using less than one volume of fuel vs 16 volumes of air in the engine at idle. Perfect combustion is again 14.7 quantity of air mass to one quantity of fuel mass. Anything above 14.7 is just bragging rights on an air/fuel gage and does nothing for you. Can't burn a mixture and make push on the piston without a combustion event. Anything above 14.7 and you cheated the fuel out of a chance to have a proper push on the piston for that air mass going thru the engine.

So OEM Manufacturers today use modern computers to run at 14.7 Air/Fuel under all modes of operation today. They use other devices to help the engine run in those modes vs resorting to max power air/fuel ratio modes. They use transmission gearing and EFI to make it work. You can make a EFI unit run just as well as a carb but in both cases you have to put the right parts in the carb and the right calibration in the EFI system

Just my comments.

Tom V.

[Formulajones]

First you have to keep in mind, stoich with todays 10% ethanol fuel is not 14.7:1. It's 14:1. .7 richer than real gas. Trying to run the real gas stoich number with 10% ethanol fuel is beyond it's efficiency range.

So your cruise AFR of 13.8-ish is by no means rich at all, not even close to being too rich. Quite frankly if the engine cruises fine there without drivability issues like surge, hesitation, I'd leave it be.

The idle AFR however, I agree with Tom, way too lean even for real gas. Personally I would be richening the idle circuit. To get that in a safe level your mixture screws may or may not be active enough and sometimes it's necessary to increase the idle feed restrictor size.

Keep in mind any increase in AFR on the idle circuit will also increase the overall AFR throughout, so your cruise and wide open throttle AFR's will fatten slightly. So you may or may not want to make other minor changes to get your cruise back where you want it.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

What temp does it take for the thermostat to start opening and what temp for full open?

How much timing are you running at cruise speed?

Is the exhaust stinking and eye burning at idle?

Porcelain on the spark plugs staying snow white?

Lower radiator hose got a spring in it?

Fan shroud fit the radiator core good?

Does AFR readings stay the same from first start up (cold) and when it gets hot?

T-stats that don't start opening till 195°F then don't fully open till past 200°F will cause this.

Not enough timing advance will also make it run hot.

IDK
Clay

[P@blo]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I personally think 16.8-17.5 is way too lean for idle. That air/fuel ratio WILL cause Idle Temp issues. Especially on a Holley Carb. Carbs work based on air and fuel MASS going thru the engine.

The stoichiometric mixture for a gasoline engine is the ideal ratio of air to fuel that burns all fuel with no excess air. For gasoline fuel, the stoichiometric air–fuel mixture is about 14.7:1 i.e. for every ONE GRAM of FUEL MASS, to 14.7 grams of AIR MASS are required.

You gain nothing by being leaner than 14.7 ratio because there is no FUEL MASS left to burn.
There is a ideal burn rate vs push on the piston for given modes of engine operation.
Think about it. At idle, even with the PCV Valve supplying 3 cfm of Inert Gas to the combustion process you are only using and burning 16 cfm of air and fuel mixture and 3 cfm of Inert gas.

So, again, math wise, if you have a fresh mixture of Air and Fuel equal to 16 cfm and 3 cfm of burned Inert gases and oil mist you get 19 cfm at idle.

Off idle, the burned Inert gases and oil mist continue to be at 3 cfm and the Mass of air and fuel mixture goes up to the maximum fuel capability of the fuel and air control orifices.

So at your 16.8-17.5 mixture ratio you are using less than one volume of fuel vs 16 volumes of air in the engine at idle. Perfect combustion is again 14.7 quantity of air mass to one quantity of fuel mass. Anything above 14.7 is just bragging rights on an air/fuel gage and does nothing for you. Can't burn a mixture and make push on the piston without a combustion event. Anything above 14.7 and you cheated the fuel out of a chance to have a proper push on the piston for that air mass going thru the engine.

So OEM Manufacturers today use modern computers to run at 14.7 Air/Fuel under all modes of operation today. They use other devices to help the engine run in those modes vs resorting to max power air/fuel ratio modes. They use transmission gearing and EFI to make it work. You can make a EFI unit run just as well as a carb but in both cases you have to put the right parts in the carb and the right calibration in the EFI system

Just my comments.

Tom V.

Lots of great information Tom! Could one also consider the NOx levels increase because of higher levels of oxygen remaining after combustion in a leaner AF ratio environment thus the 14.7:1 ratio is more of an emissions requirement? Sort of the leanest allowed magic ratio to meet "X" emissions target.

Since we don't have to consider NOx or emissions at home we can play a bit of a different ball game an approach the 17:1 maximizing efficiency.

[Tom Vaught]

14.7 air/fuel ratio is not some picked out of the air number.
It is a well documented ratio where all of the fuel is burned up in the combustion process.
By volume, dry air contains 78.09% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, and less chemicals will in the rest of the 100% total. Lots of info on those lesser chemicals but I am not going there with this post.

When all of the fuel is burned up you then have Nitrogen and Oxygen left which creates NOx. A Bad Byproduct of Combustion.

Leanest allowed has nothing to do with it, When the fuel is gone that is it.

If you are gaining nothing in the combustion process once the fuel is gone, why go there?

Tom V.

[P@blo]

I would call the 14.7:1 AF ratio slightly rich considering carbuerators can cruise at 16:1 and accelerate from part throttle using even leaner ratios. Giving up a bit of fuel and power to pass emissions makes sense from a production standpoint though.

[Tom Vaught]

They call that "lean cruise" and it is possible for an engine to run there and gain a bit of fuel economy.
The problem is now the NOx numbers sky-rocket and you get the pollution clouds over the populated cities like in the 1960s. May not mean anything in the corn country of Iowa but in the cities it can be a major issue.

People from LA and Detroit can tell you all about those GREY layers of smog hanging over their cities.

Tom V.

[amcmike]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

First you have to keep in mind, stoich with todays 10% ethanol fuel is not 14.7:1. It's 14:1. .7 richer than real gas. Trying to run the real gas stoich number with 10% ethanol fuel is beyond it's efficiency range.

While your correct about the differences between stoich values of different types of fuels, you have to be careful when applying it to a gauge readout. The O2 sensor is actually reading the ratio of excess air value above stoich, known as lambda. Then the gauge converts it to an "air/fuel ratio." Which means you have to know what the gauge manufacturer chose as the "stoich value" of the fuel. In most cases this is 14.7:1 (which as you said is for ethanol free).


So in reality, @ cruise the sensor was probably reading .94 lambda, and therefore the gauge was programmed to calculate to a 14.7-based afr. Unless of course, the OP was already reading in lambda and then manually re-calculating himself.



This is why I prefer using gauges that read out in lambda, as it takes that question out of the equation.

[Tom Vaught]

Charlie66 and I talked a lot about his boosted 4 cylinder in terms of lambda as he was running Ethanol. Just takes some working with it vs air/fuel ratio.

Great post AMC MIKE

Tom V.

[amcmike]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Charlie66 and I talked a lot about his boosted 4 cylinder in terms of lambda as he was running Ethanol. Just takes some working with it vs air/fuel ratio.

Great post AMC MIKE

Thanks Tom!

Originally Posted by bobby326

No vac advanced. Msd dis with 6al box.

Not having load compensation for timing, can be a factor. Is it simply not hooked up, or is it without the canister?

Also, you said you're set to 15 initial. What is your total with centrifugal and by what rpm?