[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

Because he was a mechanic at a stealership.

Believe me I have held many more jobs and titles than a line mechanic in a dealership. I haven't worked as a line mechanic in a dealership since the mid eighties, pretty ancient history your quoting.

I'm not a psychologist either, but I know why you like to argue almost any point with anyone, and take swipes at anyone on here that doesn't agree with your philosophies in life.

If it makes you feel more important to belittle me, then just keep doing it. God gave me broad shoulders to deal with life's situations like this.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by 68 461 Bird

So then why should we listen to you?

There's a lot of inteligent people on this Pontiac forum with a lot of experience on what has worked for them and what has not. I would trust that information before I trust a large corporation that is only interested in making a buck.

You don't need to listen to anything I say, you need to read the study that GM funded about how much wear is reduced by filtering down to 1-2 microns. I didn't do the study, GM did, and the results speak for themselves.

I did the reading and research before I decided to change filtering on my own vehicles. The experiment is now ongoing over the last 8 years on my own private vehicles, gas and diesel. I change oil every 3-4 years and run between 30-40,000 miles. No adverse oil related problems, try that with a conventional filter and see where you are.

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Believe me I have held many more jobs and titles than a line mechanic in a dealership. I'm not a psychologist either, but I know why you like to argue almost any point with anyone, and take swipes at anyone on here that doesn't agree with your philosophies in life.

If it makes you feel more important to belittle me, then just keep doing it. God gave me broad shoulders to deal with life's situations like this.

Oh, and I am the only one here doing that, right? Sometimes you need to differentiate between tongue in cheek and seriousness.

Lighten up Francis

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Fullsize455

I'm curious about this far more advanced filtration system you seem to have found.. more details?

Also, do you have anything to back up your claims on other friction modifiers that effectively replace zddp in flat tappet cam engines? I've never heard of that.

Also, it's not so much the feds that demanded the reduction of zddp usage, it's the fact that it destroys catalytic converters. Yes, the feds mandated it as a result, but the damage to catalytic converters is the reason.

Just research "bypass oil filtration" and read up on it. I researched it for roughly 6 months before I decided to try it out. Contrary to the detractors I did spend my own money and spent time doing considerable research on the subject.

I was a dealer for Frantz bypass oil filters until the company was sold off to another entity and they eliminated the dealers that owned franchises. I'm no longer a dealer, and am not trying to sell anything to members here on PY. I'm just trying to get enthusiasts to recognize the Detroit designed system has many compromises, and of course it's better than no oil filter at all. There are much better alternatives that make more sense, and are much more efficient.

I'm not going to get into all the nuances about why one is better than the other on someone else's thread.

If anyone is truly interested, all they need to do is read this article:

https://www.machinerylubrication.com...-filtrationand

If it peaks your interest then do some more research.

[Dragncar]

The most important thing about oil is, pick a good oil and change it regularly.
I just retired my 455 HO from 20 years + of bracket racing. Built it in 1990. Has countless passes on the engine. Won about 45 1st and 2nd place trophies with it.
Never spun a bearing in my life. I ran Wall Mart synthetic for years. Same rating on the bottle as Mobil 1. Used Lucas oil treatment too. I does leave this thin "slime" on everything. You can even feel it on say a distributor you remove. The last few years I have ran Dello oil just because I had 15 gallons given to me. Nothing wrong with that either.
Now this is a engine shifted at 5500 RPM. If I had a 8K engine I would use a high end oil.
But for the most part, changing you oil is the most important thing. I bet one refinery might have a dozen different brands that is all the same oil anyway.
If far more important to use good parts, the right clearances, assembled right with all the oil system mods you need to do on a performance Pontiac then whatever oil you might use.

[64speed]

I have driven nothing but classics cars for a very long portion of my younger life all with flat tappet cams. I have always used rotella in those engines and never had a problem. At break in on a new engine I would use rotella with a bottle of zddp stuff dump right in the lifter valley right before startup. The only lobe failure I ever had that had anything to do with one of my SBC builds had to do with a neighbor who was chasing a ticking sound and couldn’t wait for me to get home and he tightened the **** out of all the rocker arms. Flattened damn near every lobe.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by 64speed

I have driven nothing but classics cars for a very long portion of my younger life all with flat tappet cams. I have always used rotella in those engines and never had a problem. At break in on a new engine I would use rotella with a bottle of zddp stuff dump right in the lifter valley right before startup. The only lobe failure I ever had that had anything to do with one of my SBC builds had to do with a neighbor who was chasing a ticking sound and couldn’t wait for me to get home and he tightened the **** out of all the rocker arms. Flattened damn near every lobe.

Since I did probably 75 SBC "Tune Ups" during the late 70s all the way through the 90s, I highly doubt your neighbor hurt the cam and lifters in his chevy. I first saw a bad cam and lifters, and valve guides in 1977 in a 305 Impala that I had serviced since it left the dealer at 17,000 miles. It had regular oil changes with high quality oil and filter and it still went south early.

After that time it was ongoing to have primarily 305s come in ticking or missing and have bad cam and lifters, and also need valve guides. It was a chevy problem, not oil related, nor could it be solved by additives. The heads also cracked for whatever reason around the valves. It was a serious problem, some say with metallurgy, others blame poor machining of the too soft blocks, too soft cam cores, improperly hardened lifters, plenty of blame to go around and it cost consumers a ton of money.

As near as I can tell it all started in 1977 and I haven't any idea when chevy/GM finally solved the problems, seems like the late 80s early 90s was about the time it quit happening.

Pontiac didn't escape it either, I've seen plenty of 301s with flat cams in them beginning in 77 when the 301 first appeared, it also had a soft block. At 60,000 miles the cylinders were worn so bad you couldn't remove a piston without ridge reaming the block. This was uncommon with Pontiac blocks previously. I had many Pontiac engines with 100-150,000 miles that I could slide the pistons out of the bores by just knocking the carbon ridge off of them.

The 2.5 Iron Duke had a soft block also, they would egg shape the bores and wear the cylinders out and end up filling the air filter housing up with blowby and oil, at less than 50,000 miles. This is when the 2.5 also had the piston rock/knock, sitting at a traffic light next to one of these GM cars, you knew from the sound it was a 4 rather than a V6 option.

This is the time GM lost their market share as they should have.

[TedRamAirII]

One issue is that "Rotella-CK" is not the Rotella that everyone's engine builder has used or recommended in the past. When it was rated CH, CI or CJ that's a entirely different oil than it is now, they dropped the "S" ratings, only the name is the same. Its all spelled out on the ratings on the side of the bottle. Reading the bottle of any motor oil, "APPROVED FOR" is different than "Recommended" or "Meets or Exceeds". So, if its safe for Cat Converters, it maybe isnt good enough for our Pontiacs. Every oil company has continued to remake and substitute their additive package to help auto/truck manufacturers meet emission specs. What is the latest, greatest oil....today?

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

The most important thing about oil is, pick a good oil and change it regularly.
I just retired my 455 HO from 20 years + of bracket racing. Built it in 1990. Has countless passes on the engine. Won about 45 1st and 2nd place trophies with it.
Never spun a bearing in my life. I ran Wall Mart synthetic for years. Same rating on the bottle as Mobil 1. Used Lucas oil treatment too. I does leave this thin "slime" on everything. You can even feel it on say a distributor you remove. The last few years I have ran Dello oil just because I had 15 gallons given to me. Nothing wrong with that either.
Now this is a engine shifted at 5500 RPM. If I had a 8K engine I would use a high end oil.
But for the most part, changing you oil is the most important thing. I bet one refinery might have a dozen different brands that is all the same oil anyway.
If far more important to use good parts, the right clearances, assembled right with all the oil system mods you need to do on a performance Pontiac then whatever oil you might use.

Agree with using quality oil and changing it often. The OE philosophy for many years now is making newer cars as non-maintenance as they can get away with. Al Gore and his buddies led the charge to "save millions of gallons of oil", reduce waste, and reduce land fill contamination by encouraging the OE's to reduce the size of oil filters, change filter packaging, such as the drop-in cartridge, and creating algorithms in the vehicle computer to "maximize the life of the oil", NOT THE ENGINE. The result has been a huge and unnecessary number of engine failures. They do last long enough to make it out of warranty, all the OE's care about. My advice to ALL my customers is to change their oil and filter as soon as the vehicle reaches 50% of the oil life monitor. Then no more engine problems.
As far as what oil to use, if you like Valvoline, keep in mind they are a huge producer. Most private labeled quality oil is made by them. Look at the bottle of oil, if it says Ashland oil company on it, that is the Valvoline parent company. NAPA, Oreily's, Advance Auto Parts, Autozone, Walmart house brand oils are ALL Valvoline. Keep that in mind if looking for a deal. Pennzoil, Quaker State and Slick 50, are all owned by Shell. One thing I really like about Valvoline in particular, is if your willing to spend the time, they have a chemical breakdown of every product they sell on their web site. That way you can compare and pick the PPM of ZZDP and other additives you want in your oil if you are that picky.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by GT182

I don't understand why anyone uses diesel oil on their gas engines. It's for diesel engines not gas. I used it at one time in my 79 Formula and it ruined the engine bearings. That's one of the reasons I only use Valvoline. You might think your doing your engine a big favor but it the long run you aren't. And I've heard that from a number of retailers and those that have used it.

Sorry for the rant but I hojnestly found out the hard way.

where do people come up with this stuff?! diesel oil is 100% compatible with & rated for gas engines. at least look at a bottle & the specs it has before posting crap like this. it did not & physically could not damage your bearings in any way, shape or form!

same goes for the comment on here that diesel oil isnt designed for "high revs"... its made from the same base stock oil as any other off the shelf conventional oil & will handle 2000 or 7000 rpms just the same.

the misinfo being spread out there is amazing!

[Chief of the 60's]

LOL! I am surprised no one brought up SCAmsoil

[Ram Air IV Jack]

Originally Posted by 78w72

where do people come up with this stuff?! diesel oil is 100% compatible with & rated for gas engines. at least look at a bottle & the specs it has before posting crap like this. it did not & physically could not damage your bearings in any way, shape or form!

same goes for the comment on here that diesel oil isnt designed for "high revs"... its made from the same base stock oil as any other off the shelf conventional oil & will handle 2000 or 7000 rpms just the same.

the misinfo being spread out there is amazing!

The word "compatible" means one thing, the words "approved or recommended" mean another. Please remember that!! I've heard stories on both sides of this debate concerning diesel oil being used in gasoline engines. One thing that is pretty certain is using a quality oil made for gasoline engines, the "starburst symbol" you see on most oil containers, will be fine and won't hurt anything. As far as the diesel oil debate, it is personal choice and what people are comfortable with. There is one good debate though. Since diesel engines are not designed for high revs, you do wonder if diesel oil would provide adequate protection in a gasoline engine pushing 5k to 6k+ revs! I can see an argument there.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Ram Air IV Jack

The word "compatible" means one thing, the words "approved or recommended" mean another. Please remember that!! I've heard stories on both sides of this debate concerning diesel oil being used in gasoline engines. One thing that is pretty certain is using a quality oil made for gasoline engines, the "starburst symbol" you see on most oil containers, will be fine and won't hurt anything. As far as the diesel oil debate, it is personal choice and what people are comfortable with. There is one good debate though. Since diesel engines are not designed for high revs, you do wonder if diesel oil would provide adequate protection in a gasoline engine pushing 5k to 6k+ revs! I can see an argument there.

i use compatible to convey its rated & approved by the manufacturer for both diesel & gasoline engines... thats what the API rating means! remember that! & its recommended by anyone that knows about oil or engines in general... rotella-t has been recommended by engine builders for decades with zero problems. ive been using diesel oil in my classic pontiacs for 10+ years!

yes there are "stories" about diesel oil, just read this thread or many of the other threads on here & other forums... complete udder nonsense!

you must be the guy that posted the "high revs" thing earlier, where did you come up with that concept? a story you heard? there is no argument for that at all... diesel oil uses the same base stock oil as any other normal oils, therefore it can & will work exactly the same as "gasoline" oils. seriously, oils are not designed based on rpms, if it has an api rating it is "designed" for any normal rpm range. please show me where you got this "not designed for high rpm" mumbo jumbo.

edit: actually scratch that last part, if you seriously think or believe thats true, then its not worth wasting any more time on it. carry on.

[TedRamAirII]

Originally Posted by Ram Air IV Jack

The word "compatible" means one thing, the words "approved or recommended" mean another. Please remember that!! I've heard stories on both sides of this debate concerning diesel oil being used in gasoline engines. One thing that is pretty certain is using a quality oil made for gasoline engines, the "starburst symbol" you see on most oil containers, will be fine and won't hurt anything. As far as the diesel oil debate, it is personal choice and what people are comfortable with. There is one good debate though. Since diesel engines are not designed for high revs, you do wonder if diesel oil would provide adequate protection in a gasoline engine pushing 5k to 6k+ revs! I can see an argument there.

How does the oil know how many RPM's its going?

[mgarblik]

Every thread on every forum involving cars or trucks and oil/additives will end up just like this. There is lots and lots of money at stake and it's in the best interest of all the manufacturers and retailers to keep it that way. Opinions are strong, anecdotal evidence rules the day. Two things to help guide you through the mess. API, American Petroleum Institute, SAE, Society of Automotive Engineers. In a very generic sense, API rates quality, SAE rates viscosity. API S ratings are for spark ignition engines, C ratings are for compression ignition engines. Some conventional oils and some synthetics carry API quality ratings for both S and C applications, some do not. Oils listed for "high mileage" are allowed slightly more ZZDP in the chemistry than the latest S rated oils with the DEXOS designation. Oils sold as synthetic blends are impossible to qualify IMO. A semi-synthetic oil blend can be 10% synthetic up to 90% synthetic, there is no standard. It would be in the best interest of profit to keep the % low. I have been in this business almost 50 years, still waiting to see my first engine failure CAUSED by the engine oil. Oil can contribute to engine failure, sure. Try and prove it!. My advice FWIW, use the correct SAE viscosity for your application. Use full synthetic oil for the best possible engine protection. Use the API S or C rated oil for the approximate age/mileage/ design of the engine. Use any major, recognized brand of oil you like. NO ADDITIVES OF ANY TYPE are needed after break-in of a new engine if the above guidelines are followed. (full disclosure) My race team is sponsored by Valvoline, I use all Valvoline lubricants.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII

How does the oil know how many RPM's its going?

oh it knows, diesel oils have a super high tech nano robot that can detect when the oil is above 3000 rpm, & then, the oil completely fails & causes catastrophic engine failure!


I have been in this business almost 50 years, still waiting to see my first engine failure CAUSED by the engine oil.

the first ever failure is documented in this thread & it's true because he said so... he used diesel oil & it ruined his bearings! because you know, diesel oil will do that in a gasoline engine!

[Chief of the 60's]

LOL! Sorry but that's funny as all hell I don't care who you are.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

LOL! Sorry but that's funny as all hell I don't care who you are.

just trying to keep up with you. these kinda threads need a little comedy.

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by 78w72

just trying to keep up with you. these kinda threads need a little comedy.

Some of the answers, comments and experiences are shear comedic genius.

[Old Goat 67]

Over and over again.....

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/