[Chief of the 60's]

LOL! How could we forget Bob? LMAO!

[SRR]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Agree with using quality oil and changing it often. The OE philosophy for many years now is making newer cars as non-maintenance as they can get away with. Al Gore and his buddies led the charge to "save millions of gallons of oil", reduce waste, and reduce land fill contamination by encouraging the OE's to reduce the size of oil filters, change filter packaging, such as the drop-in cartridge, and creating algorithms in the vehicle computer to "maximize the life of the oil", NOT THE ENGINE. The result has been a huge and unnecessary number of engine failures. They do last long enough to make it out of warranty, all the OE's care about. My advice to ALL my customers is to change their oil and filter as soon as the vehicle reaches 50% of the oil life monitor. Then no more engine problems.
As far as what oil to use, if you like Valvoline, keep in mind they are a huge producer. Most private labeled quality oil is made by them. Look at the bottle of oil, if it says Ashland oil company on it, that is the Valvoline parent company. NAPA, Oreily's, Advance Auto Parts, Autozone, Walmart house brand oils are ALL Valvoline. Keep that in mind if looking for a deal. Pennzoil, Quaker State and Slick 50, are all owned by Shell. One thing I really like about Valvoline in particular, is if your willing to spend the time, they have a chemical breakdown of every product they sell on their web site. That way you can compare and pick the PPM of ZZDP and other additives you want in your oil if you are that picky.

My old ladies car is a 2014 Accord Sport. It has an oil life monitor on it. I tracked the miles and it was almost hitting 10,000 before it went to "0" % oil life left. SCREW THAT! I told her the oil was going to get changed at 50% life after that (0W20 syn). It was coming out nearly black. I cut open filter at every change, dark but no crap inside. My 01 Merc. Marquis gets the oil done @ 1000 miles only because I only drive 8 miles a day and it would take forever to hit 3000 miles. I run full syn. in that car also (5W20) I have access to comm. sales and buy in bulk along with the filters when there on special, so I'm not "wasting" money on oil changes. Something my Dad (RIP) drilled into my head was: Change your oil and filter when your supposed to, don't overheat your engine and you won't have too much trouble! This is a pic of a Camry I had with 274,000 miles on it. I changed the oil every 3000 miles with the filter. Vavoline!

[Lee]

I spent most of my adult working career working for two of the 4 main oil additive manufacturers. I've posted stuff before, nothing new to add (other than RohMax is now mainly called Evonik), so my info is in the achives, if anyone is interested.

ExxonMobil is the only company I know of that actually refines their own base oils, and makes SOME of their additives. I never worked for them, but shipped to & from them.

Generally, I use Mobil1 when it is close in price to everything else, but will buy "on sale" if the price is several bucks cheaper. I use CompCams break-in oil, too.

[TedRamAirII]

Originally Posted by SRR

My old ladies car is a 2014 Accord Sport. It has an oil life monitor on it. I tracked the miles and it was almost hitting 10,000 before it went to "0" % oil life left. SCREW THAT! I told her the oil was going to get changed at 50% life after that (0W20 syn). It was coming out nearly black. I cut open filter at every change, dark but no crap inside. My 01 Merc. Marquis gets the oil done @ 1000 miles only because I only drive 8 miles a day and it would take forever to hit 3000 miles. I run full syn. in that car also (5W20) I have access to comm. sales and buy in bulk along with the filters when there on special, so I'm not "wasting" money on oil changes. Something my Dad (RIP) drilled into my head was: Change your oil and filter when your supposed to, don't overheat your engine and you won't have too much trouble! This is a pic of a Camry I had with 274,000 miles on it. I changed the oil every 3000 miles with the filter. Vavoline!

Correct. If you keep clean oil and dont overheat, it will last until you are sick of driving it. Overheating is the number one killer of cars.

[Fullsize455]

Originally Posted by 78w72

i use compatible to convey its rated & approved by the manufacturer for both diesel & gasoline engines... thats what the API rating means! remember that! & its recommended by anyone that knows about oil or engines in general... rotella-t has been recommended by engine builders for decades with zero problems. ive been using diesel oil in my classic pontiacs for 10+ years!

yes there are "stories" about diesel oil, just read this thread or many of the other threads on here & other forums... complete udder nonsense!

you must be the guy that posted the "high revs" thing earlier, where did you come up with that concept? a story you heard? there is no argument for that at all... diesel oil uses the same base stock oil as any other normal oils, therefore it can & will work exactly the same as "gasoline" oils. seriously, oils are not designed based on rpms, if it has an api rating it is "designed" for any normal rpm range. please show me where you got this "not designed for high rpm" mumbo jumbo.

edit: actually scratch that last part, if you seriously think or believe thats true, then its not worth wasting any more time on it. carry on.

Right, because you know you don't have an argument. You're not arguing based on facts or established science, you just came up with something that sounds right to you and think it's an argument. Trouble is, gut feelings and reality are not always one and the same.

Prolonged high RPM operation results in much higher oil temperature, and motor oil breaks down exponentially faster with heat. No, of course the oil does not know the engine RPM, it is simply affected by the conditions under which it is used. High RPM and frequent heavy throttle break down oil much faster than regular street driving at lower RPM. This is the kind of common sense that you don't have to be a scientist to understand.

Even those with even the most basic understanding of the differences between oils know that synthetic oil has far superior ability to deal with heat, thus it is almost universally better at dealing with higher performance engines than a typical conventional oil. Since we're talking about stuff like Rotella and Delo, we're talking about conventional oils here. Yes, there absolutely are differences between different oils' ability to handle higher RPM operation. If you think otherwise just because you think oil isn't a tachometer, I can't help you.

If you want facts, you do research and read information from as many sources as possible. If you want to be stubborn and never learn anything new, you come up with something that sounds good in your own head and you stick to it regardless what anyone else says and whether or not it's true. Fact is, the science involved with motor oils is widely studied, widely understood and available for anyone who desires knowledge to persue and understand, most people just don't care, because they think they already know all there is to know. That's why every thread about oil always devolves into these dumb arguments and disagreements, where endless myths are spewed, misinformation runs rampant, and in the end nobody is any better off than they were before we started. Most people are just too stubborn to bother learning anything new, especially when their daddy told them something different 40 years ago, and we all know daddy was always right!

[HWYSTR455]

I've used Valvoline, both the regular and racing, but switched from the racing due to it not having the appropriate additives for general street use. I've used rotella 10-40 almost exclusively for probably over 10 years, never had a problem there. I've used a bunch of others before that, Delo is pretty good, and a couple others.

I don't like GTX or any of the 'dark' oils, because, well, you can't tell when it gets dirty. So I go for the 'honey' gold stuff. But I did use GTX for a while.

I'm a fan of syn oils, but they are cost prohibitive. I get that they take more heat, and the additives don't break down as quick, but there are contaminants that get into the oil that requires the oil to be changed in X intervals, plain and simple. And some of those contaminants are not particular, they are solvent/chemical, so you can't filter them out regardless of what filter you're using. So I change it. At regular, REASONABLE intervals. For me, that's usually in the 3-5000 range, depending on use.

I've used additives in some situations, additional detergents in some cases can be helpful. Just use common sense in those situations. Stuck/noisy lifter? Yeah, MMO is ok, but I don't suggest running for any length of time. If it doesn't clear up within like 1000-1500 miles, you need to dump it, and fix the issue other ways. Common sense IMO.

No octane additives for me. Yeah, technically, it may raise the octane rating a point or 2, but the engine doesn't feel it, because it's cheating the rating system, that's it.

Now cleaners and water remover, that's different. You can run a fuel injector cleaner in a efi car, but I don't see a purpose running it in a carb car. Clean the filter, spray the carb down, disassemble occasionally, and done. Be careful not to fill up at questionable gas stations. Again, common sense. And sorry, if you have a 40+ year old gas tank, it's time to change it, or at least drop it and have it cleaned/checked. You're just asking for trouble if you don't. What is that called, 'play and pray'?

.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I've used Valvoline, both the regular and racing, but switched from the racing due to it not having the appropriate additives for general street use. I've used rotella 10-40 almost exclusively for probably over 10 years, never had a problem there. I've used a bunch of others before that, Delo is pretty good, and a couple others.

I don't like GTX or any of the 'dark' oils, because, well, you can't tell when it gets dirty. So I go for the 'honey' gold stuff. But I did use GTX for a while.

I'm a fan of syn oils, but they are cost prohibitive. I get that they take more heat, and the additives don't break down as quick, but there are contaminants that get into the oil that requires the oil to be changed in X intervals, plain and simple. And some of those contaminants are not particular, they are solvent/chemical, so you can't filter them out regardless of what filter you're using. So I change it. At regular, REASONABLE intervals. For me, that's usually in the 3-5000 range, depending on use.

I've used additives in some situations, additional detergents in some cases can be helpful. Just use common sense in those situations. Stuck/noisy lifter? Yeah, MMO is ok, but I don't suggest running for any length of time. If it doesn't clear up within like 1000-1500 miles, you need to dump it, and fix the issue other ways. Common sense IMO.

No octane additives for me. Yeah, technically, it may raise the octane rating a point or 2, but the engine doesn't feel it, because it's cheating the rating system, that's it.

Now cleaners and water remover, that's different. You can run a fuel injector cleaner in a efi car, but I don't see a purpose running it in a carb car. Clean the filter, spray the carb down, disassemble occasionally, and done. Be careful not to fill up at questionable gas stations. Again, common sense. And sorry, if you have a 40+ year old gas tank, it's time to change it, or at least drop it and have it cleaned/checked. You're just asking for trouble if you don't. What is that called, 'play and pray'?

.

One question about your statement that filters can't preserve oil because it gets contaminated by chemicals and solvents.

If you run the oil for 250,000 miles in an OTR truck with by pass filtration, only change the filters and add make up oil, it is sampled and sent off for analysis at regular intervals, and it comes back that the oil is still good, is it still bad by your standards that it's contaminated with chemicals and solvents? That infers that oil analysis is useless, correct?

I just ask because, that exact scenario has been done over and over. The difference between dropping the oil and conventional full flow filters at 15,000 miles, compared to using by pass filtration, and oil is still fully serviceable at 250,000 miles is the only difference. You extended the oils useful life by 16.6 plus times. Just from that example it seems that 1-2 micron filtering does make a huge difference. If the oil is analytically clean it interrupts the degradation of the oil, not forever, but it does make a huge difference in oil and engine life.

Add that to GMs own engine wear study that by pass oil filtration to 5 microns at 98% efficiency retards engine wear by 3.6 times, compared to a standard 40 micron full flow filter. Lessening wear that much shouldn't be ignored, wear cut by over 65%. There isn't any oil or additive on the market that can claim that type of wear reduction and have it documented by SAE, and GM.

Using GMs own statistics for a study that they funded, means that an engine that would normally run 200,000 miles would now be on track to run 720,000 miles with by pass filtration.

I'm well aware that most people here will ignore this fact, but if you're a car enthusiast it might save you some, money, time and work, I know it does me. The by pass filter systems on my own vehicles installed in 2011 paid for themselves about 4 years ago in oil and filter costs, I didn't factor in any savings for reduced engine wear.

My oil gets changed every 3-4 years, 30-40,000 miles, diesel and gas. Gas engine, LS2 05 GTO, currently 136,000 miles, last oil change at 106,000 miles 2015. Diesel engine, 93 K3500 dually, 6.5 turbo diesel engine current mileage 266,000 miles, oil last changed at 235,000 miles in 2015. I had the timing cover apart last year on the 6.5 to change a water pump, the timing chain has not stretched, was tight just like a new chain is, and the inside of the timing cover after wiping it with a rag is perfectly clean, right down to bare aluminum.

The technology is there for anyone that feels they'd like to cut engine wear significantly. Read up on by pass oil filtration if any of this peaks your interest.

[72projectbird]

Originally Posted by Firedup6975

So do you guys use fuel boosters in your gas? And what oil is everyone using. I always use premium gas in my bird, and every other month use a booster.

50/50 mix of 93 and 100LL in the GTO.

The other cars can run on any regular fuel.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

One question about your statement that filters can't preserve oil because it gets contaminated by chemicals and solvents.

If you run the oil for 250,000 miles in an OTR truck with by pass filtration, only change the filters and add make up oil, it is sampled and sent off for analysis at regular intervals, and it comes back that the oil is still good, is it still bad by your standards that it's contaminated with chemicals and solvents? That infers that oil analysis is useless, correct?

I just ask because, that exact scenario has been done over and over. The difference between dropping the oil and conventional full flow filters at 15,000 miles, compared to using by pass filtration, and oil is still fully serviceable at 250,000 miles is the only difference. You extended the oils useful life by 16.6 plus times. Just from that example it seems that 1-2 micron filtering does make a huge difference. If the oil is analytically clean it interrupts the degradation of the oil, not forever, but it does make a huge difference in oil and engine life.

Add that to GMs own engine wear study that by pass oil filtration to 5 microns at 98% efficiency retards engine wear by 3.6 times, compared to a standard 40 micron full flow filter. Lessening wear that much shouldn't be ignored, wear cut by over 65%. There isn't any oil or additive on the market that can claim that type of wear reduction and have it documented by SAE, and GM.

Using GMs own statistics for a study that they funded, means that an engine that would normally run 200,000 miles would now be on track to run 720,000 miles with by pass filtration.

I'm well aware that most people here will ignore this fact, but if you're a car enthusiast it might save you some, money, time and work, I know it does me. The by pass filter systems on my own vehicles installed in 2011 paid for themselves about 4 years ago in oil and filter costs, I didn't factor in any savings for reduced engine wear.

My oil gets changed every 3-4 years, 30-40,000 miles, diesel and gas. Gas engine, LS2 05 GTO, currently 136,000 miles, last oil change at 106,000 miles 2015. Diesel engine, 93 K3500 dually, 6.5 turbo diesel engine current mileage 266,000 miles, oil last changed at 235,000 miles in 2015. I had the timing cover apart last year on the 6.5 to change a water pump, the timing chain has not stretched, was tight just like a new chain is, and the inside of the timing cover after wiping it with a rag is perfectly clean, right down to bare aluminum.

The technology is there for anyone that feels they'd like to cut engine wear significantly. Read up on by pass oil filtration if any of this peaks your interest.

Ok, please don't put words in my mouth, I have a pretty good ability to make a fool out of myself without help! Heheh!

I really don't think you're comparing apples to apples here. Let's take this example. Take a quart of oil, and a quart of pump gasoline, put them in a gas can and shake for 1 min. Then pour it thru one of your magical filters, how much comes out? 2 quarts, right? Minus whatever gets trapped in the filter. That's because no WAY can filter media SEPARATE the 2 fluids. Period. It's a filter, not a separator, the media is fiber based, and depending on how close the fibers are meshed is what dictates the size of PARTICLES that get removed.

Now I won't argue that it does filter down to smaller particles than typical off the shelf consumer auto filters. But. Because of bearing clearances, etc, it's debatable how much damage that would actually cause.

Now, when it comes to service/fleet vehicles, not only do they have much better oil filtration, but air filtration as well.

Oil analysis, there are many types of oil analysis, and the basic ones measure PARTICULAR material contaminates. Yes, they look for others, but generally, only if there is more than X contamination. And they certainly don't measure oil additives.

Oil additives, they wear out. That generally is not only from X use, but also X time. No filtration system will RESTORE additives. When they are gone, they're gone. And most additives are more important in gasoline apps, because there is such a variation in quality, mainly from poor storage.

I could keep going, about carb/efi, and gas/diesel, SCRs, but I don't need to, it's obvious. I don't doubt bypass filters are better, but they generally look crappy in a musclecar engine bay. And I'm not going to carry a pack of Charmin in the garage. People would ask what the heck it was for. And then I would have to explain while trying to drown out laughter.

Someone once told me the majority of the cost of auto oil was due to the additives and the packaging. Not sure if that's true, but I think I'm ok with spending like 25 bucks to do an oil change every 3-5k miles. Then I KNOW it's fresh, contaminants are removed, and additives are replenished. It's a cost I'm willing to accept, and it works.

.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Fullsize455

Right, because you know you don't have an argument. You're not arguing based on facts or established science, you just came up with something that sounds right to you and think it's an argument. Trouble is, gut feelings and reality are not always one and the same.

Prolonged high RPM operation results in much higher oil temperature, and motor oil breaks down exponentially faster with heat. No, of course the oil does not know the engine RPM, it is simply affected by the conditions under which it is used. High RPM and frequent heavy throttle break down oil much faster than regular street driving at lower RPM. This is the kind of common sense that you don't have to be a scientist to understand.

Even those with even the most basic understanding of the differences between oils know that synthetic oil has far superior ability to deal with heat, thus it is almost universally better at dealing with higher performance engines than a typical conventional oil. Since we're talking about stuff like Rotella and Delo, we're talking about conventional oils here. Yes, there absolutely are differences between different oils' ability to handle higher RPM operation. If you think otherwise just because you think oil isn't a tachometer, I can't help you.

If you want facts, you do research and read information from as many sources as possible. If you want to be stubborn and never learn anything new, you come up with something that sounds good in your own head and you stick to it regardless what anyone else says and whether or not it's true. Fact is, the science involved with motor oils is widely studied, widely understood and available for anyone who desires knowledge to persue and understand, most people just don't care, because they think they already know all there is to know. That's why every thread about oil always devolves into these dumb arguments and disagreements, where endless myths are spewed, misinformation runs rampant, and in the end nobody is any better off than they were before we started. Most people are just too stubborn to bother learning anything new, especially when their daddy told them something different 40 years ago, and we all know daddy was always right!

not sure what youre trying to prove here... that is a LOT of words for what i think is you trying to defend diesel oil not being capable of high rpm use. also a LOT of assumptions that i dont have a basic understanding of oils or that synthetics are better than conventional"...

as for facts & doing research, please, do some research & show me anywhere that says diesel oil has a problem with "high rpms". plenty of racers & street guys that run up to 6000 rpms using diesel oils for decades! actually why dont you call shell or mobil or valvoline tech line & ask. all major oil companies offer a diesel oil.

& im fully aware oil heat is an issue from high rpms, ALL the diesel oils we are talking about will withstand the same amount of heat as standard car oils. rotella & every company have a synthetic version of their diesel oils too. again, they are all made from the same base stock as standard car oils, handles the same amount of heat or rpm. yes, some oils are better than others but in general you cant just say all diesel oils can't handle high rpms or heat. & most diesel engines are turbos, which create tons of heat!

also diesel oils are called heavy duty engine oils, they aren't just for diesels. they can be used on any heavy duty application, gas or deisel, they are just a little more robust than a standard off the shelf car oil which is why hot rodders & racers like them.

so untill you or anyone else making these claims shows me otherwise, yes i do have an argument that diesel oils can handle the same rpms or heat as a normal car oil. synthetic or conventionsal.

[Sirrotica]

Ok, please don't put words in my mouth, I have a pretty good ability to make a fool out of myself without help! Heheh!

I really don't think you're comparing apples to apples here. Let's take this example. Take a quart of oil, and a quart of pump gasoline, put them in a gas can and shake for 1 min. Then pour it thru one of your magical filters, how much comes out? 2 quarts, right? Minus whatever gets trapped in the filter. That's because no WAY can filter media SEPARATE the 2 fluids. Period. It's a filter, not a separator, the media is fiber based, and depending on how close the fibers are meshed is what dictates the size of PARTICLES that get removed.

You're correct, that fuel (light hydrocarbons) cannot be separated from oil (heavy hydrocarbons) with out heat. If you have a quart of fuel in your oil you have a mechanical problem. Normal blowby/fuel contamination will vaporize as the oil gets hot, vaporizes and is pulled out of the crankcase by the PCV system. No filter or mechanical means can separate fuel and oil. Heat will, oil under normal circumstances has plenty of heat to vaporize the small amount of fuel that bypasses the rings. It works the same way that crude oil is cracked in a tower under heat the light hydrocarbons vaporize sooner than the heavier hydrocarbons rising out of the oil and being sucked out of the crankcase by engine vacuum (PCV) to be reburned in the engine.

Now I won't argue that it does filter down to smaller particles than typical off the shelf consumer auto filters. But. Because of bearing clearances, etc, it's debatable how much damage that would actually cause.

As I already have stated very clearly, SAE has papers written on it, and GM has done 2 studies that cite that wear will be reduced 3.6 times (360% more efficient) so I think it's proven by well qualified sources, it's not up for discussion on how much damage it actually causes. The 5-15 micron particulate is the most damaging and causes the most wear. It goes unabated in a standard filter and can easily make it's way into even the tightest clearance parts in any engine. It's like fine dust after a dust storm that makes it into homes no matter how well they are sealed up. The fine stuff that is capable of going anywhere oil flows is the abrasives that wear engines, the stuff that passes right through your full flow 40 micron media filter

Now, when it comes to service/fleet vehicles, not only do they have much better oil filtration, but air filtration as well.

Silica that is ingested through the air tract is always present no matter what air filter system you're using. Silica is very damaging to any IC engine and some of it will end up in the oil, Exactly why you should have a oil filter that filters oil to 1-2 microns, not 40 microns

Oil analysis, there are many types of oil analysis, and the basic ones measure PARTICULAR material contaminates. Yes, they look for others, but generally, only if there is more than X contamination. And they certainly don't measure oil additives.

Oil additives, they wear out. That generally is not only from X use, but also X time. No filtration system will RESTORE additives. When they are gone, they're gone. And most additives are more important in gasoline apps, because there is such a variation in quality, mainly from poor storage.

Oil additives wear out when they are in dirty oil and are used up quickly (they're sacrificial). In clean oil the additive package remains much longer, plus it gets a boost from makeup oil that is added when the filter media is changed. It should never get to a point where the oil is in any danger of being additive deficient.

They actually do measure oil additives in an engine oil analysis, I'm not sure why you think the additive package isn't appraised when the oil condition is analyzed, it is very important to the overall condition of the oil. Trace metal as well as trace coolant is also analyzed. Coolant and fuel contamination is also very important, as it shows mechanical problems in the cooling system as well as the fuel system.


I could keep going, about carb/efi, and gas/diesel, SCRs, but I don't need to, it's obvious. I don't doubt bypass filters are better, but they generally look crappy in a musclecar engine bay. And I'm not going to carry a pack of Charmin in the garage. People would ask what the heck it was for. And then I would have to explain while trying to drown out laughter.

Only the Frantz filter uses TP as a media, Charmin isn't the type media that works anyway. it's the worst possible media you could choose because it has air pockets woven into the paper. The media needs rough single ply janitorial quality paper packed as densely as possible.

Amsoil, Baldwin, WIX/NAPA all make spin on by pass filters from cellulose as well as glass media, you can take your pick, and they look same as a single remote filter. My 05 GTO has a Frantz filter on it and I've never had anyone look under the hood that even noticed it was a TP oil filter. It doesn't go on the outside of the canister, it goes inside of it...…….

Someone once told me the majority of the cost of auto oil was due to the additives and the packaging. Not sure if that's true, but I think I'm ok with spending like 25 bucks to do an oil change every 3-5k miles. Then I KNOW it's fresh, contaminants are removed, and additives are replenished. It's a cost I'm willing to accept, and it works.

I use only synthetic oils so I'm not going to throw it out every 3-5,000 miles, but you feel free to keep doing what you're doing if you feel you're doing yourself a favor.

I'm really more concerned with avoiding the wear on the engine parts, 99% less wear over the last 7 years on my personal vehicles is monumental.

Read my oil change intervals compared to yours, I run the oil 10 times longer, I get at least 20 times better filtration, 1-2 micron as compared to 40 microns, over 100% of the life of the oil, it doesn't decline the longer the oil is in the crankcase because it's being continually contaminated with sub 40 micron particles. If it doesn't work as described, how can I possibly run oil that long with no adverse effect? There is no additive or oil that is capable of doing anywhere near what I have outlined. Clean oil never degrades in a bottle, if it's kept the same through filtering, it really doesn't degrade nearly as fast in an engine. It does eventually degrade, but it takes years, and many running hours to get to the point that the oil loses it's ability to safely protect the engine parts. That's the reason for oil analysis

As noted I run these on my own vehicles for 7 years, I know first hand that the claims made about by pass oil filtration will do more to eliminate engine wear, while safely extending oil change intervals. The information I post is first hand from my own vehicles, not regurgitated spin.

I'm 65 and have been around anything mechanical all my life, made my living fixing everything with an engine in it. For 40 plus years I changed oil as everyone else does because I made my living wrenching, and put the best quality filters in customer vehicles as well as my own vehicles. Took me long enough to find out how deficient the OEM filter system is.

From my signature pictures you could see I raced dirt track Pontiacs, I'm not new, or inexperienced to what works, and what doesn't work. I paid my dues in mistakes and dollars. I just want some of the people to look at alternative oil filtration that will save you oil, labor, money, and engine wear, nothing subversive, just wish there was some consideration to a better system, than the crappy system that DOESN'T keep the oil clean.

If it kept the oil clean the oil wouldn't turn black, feel gritty between your fingers, and have to be tossed out when the only thing that turns it unusable is suspended dirt which depletes the additives prematurely. Think about a filter that is selective about how much it filters out, is that efficient? Not really, because Detroit placed the filter in the wrong place because it was cheap to place it where they did, a compromise that requires a by pass valve bandaid to keep the wear parts from starving under adverse conditions. Some engineers estimate that an engine by pass valve is open 30% of the time, efficient?

Blocking the by pass in a Pontiac (or any engine) is only forcing the oil to run through an inefficient 40 micron filter. Don't think it's inefficient, it will still get dirty, even forcing all of the engine oil through it all the time, you still have to change it, correct me if I'm wrong.

[ck67goat]

Originally Posted by b-man

About 25 years ago when I was building my first Pontiac engine I contacted Ken Crocie at H-O Racing numerous times when he offered a tech question phone line for his customers.

During one of our conversations I asked him which brand of oil he recommended.

His answer was "on sale".

Buying whichever brand was on sale at a discount was his advice. Ken didn't have a preferred oil brand to recommend. For many years I was using Havoline 10w-30 in my daily driver 455, with a coupon I was paying $0.39 a quart for it. The inside of the engine always looked clean and I never had any oiling related issues.

Personally I've used numerous different brands of oil including diesel oils and all were more than satisfactory.

x 10 - my dad once worked with Shell oil. With the huge array of different colored oil containers on store shelves, it's easy to forget that there are limited sources of oil and refineries, yet an astonishing long list of oil brand names. Unsurprisingly, if you select any oil based on viscousity and additives and blindly compared the brand names, you'd find them to be nearly identical because most are. Insider's secret is that most oil is sourced and blended with additives before being sold to oil distributors. The pricing differences are primarily costs for marketing, distribution, and pretty packaging on final consumer product. I've seen the inside of enough engines to know it is abuse and/or neglect that kills engines, not the brand of oil. Select based on viscousity and additives needed for your particular application and you'll be fine.

[dataway]

Makes you wonder about your average modern engine. You do average maintenance, with average products and use average fuel .... you can get 250,000 miles out of them. Even with their standard automotive air, fuel and oil filters.

So put the best of everything in it .... what do you think you would get ... 300,000 miles? A million miles? I'd be sick of looking at it long before then

[Sirrotica]

You miss the point if you only are only worried about the point of the engines demise, or rebuild. The point of improved oil filtration is a engine that has 90% less engine wear. An engine that doesn't slowly start using oil, losing compression, and dropping oil pressure. In other words stays as near to new as possible.

With clean oil the average fuel economy is also better because of better ring seal in two ways. Clean oil promotes better ring seal and less wear on the rings is going to produce less compression loss.

It would not be a stretch for a by pass filtered engine to make at least 750,000 miles and 1,000,000 miles would certainly be within reason.

One other thing is when you do tire of looking at the car and you trade up, the oil filtration system is easily removed from one car and re-installed on another in an hour. The beauty is the by pass oil filtration system has a payback of roughly 4 years, anything you save after that point stays in your pocket. After 7 years using it, I'm just saving money, oil, labor, and time.

Approaching 66 YO in Jan. I really don't look forward to climbing under my dually diesel or my 05 GTO and removing the skid plate to change oil and filter. If you enjoy doing oil and filter changes then the concept is lost on you. I haven't changed oil and filter in either vehicle since 2015.

Every time I change oil in the GTO it's 6 quarts of Pennzoil Platinum synthetic and 7 dollars for a decent oil filter, roughly $40. The diesel is Rotella synthetic T6 at 9 quarts and a decent filter $60. Every year I skip oil changes is $100 in my pocket plus labor saved. Truck is 266,000 miles, car is 136,000 miles.

I recently acquired a 99 3.1 GP that I'll be installing a by pass system on shortly. Has 86,000 on it currently.

[72projectbird]

Originally Posted by b-man

About 25 years ago when I was building my first Pontiac engine I contacted Ken Crocie at H-O Racing numerous times when he offered a tech question phone line for his customers.

During one of our conversations I asked him which brand of oil he recommended.

His answer was "on sale".

Buying whichever brand was on sale at a discount was his advice. Ken didn't have a preferred oil brand to recommend. For many years I was using Havoline 10w-30 in my daily driver 455, with a coupon I was paying $0.39 a quart for it. The inside of the engine always looked clean and I never had any oiling related issues.

Personally I've used numerous different brands of oil including diesel oils and all were more than satisfactory.

I do the same thing.

In some cases (not on my Pontiacs), I've used two different brands during an oil change. There are certain cases where the appropriate oil recommendation should be followed to the T, but most cars are perfectly happy as long as they have clean oil in them.

[dataway]

When I die I want my pockets to be empty, and my engines worn out

When it comes to my modern vehicles ... about the time they need the first big brake job, I sell it and buy something new. I don't have expensive tastes, basic PU, Honda CRV ... so I figure $250 a month to always be driving a relatively new vehicle. I haven't put much more than 100K on any one vehicle in 30 years, I like that new car smell. So for me, engine longevity is kind of a moot point. I put in Mobil 1 and a filter when the light on the dash says to, and that's about it.

Heck, I once sold a five year old truck because the speaker in the door stopped working

[64speed]

I have a 2001 Yukon XL 2 wheel drive that is working on its original engine and trans. Not to say I won’t suffer a terminal failure tomorrow and I pray I don’t but it has 349,000 miles on it and shows no signs of stopping other than some AC compressor knock that needs to be addressed. The secret has been religious maintenance. Every 3000 mile oil change, PERIOD. Transmission serviced when it was supposed to be and always with Ac Delco filters. I plan on putting 500,000 miles on her before retiring her even though I contemplated trading her in a while back. If she can make it to half a million miles my Tempest will be done by then and I won’t need her everyday anymore anyway ��

[Sirrotica]

Did you ever do an audit of how much the oil and filters and free labor (free is never actually free) cost you? You could be ahead by probably at least $500, and still have less internal engine wear had you gone with a by pass filter system. You could also double the miles on it you currently have. Obviously by your own words, your not completely confident the engine is going to last to your projected 500,000 miles.

If your changing oil and filter at 3,000 miles, I'm getting a minimum 10 times that mileage between oil changes. I typically change oil every 3-4 years 30-40,000 miles. My engine wear is many times less than yours is.

Many times there are 2 ways to arrive at an end result, YOU have to figure out what makes the most sense to your situation. I've been fortunate to have done the research on by pass filtering (6 months of my free time) and with the background I have, I arrived at what makes the most sense for my needs. I'll never rely on a factory designed filter system on any vehicle I intend to keep, It's much cheaper overall to safely extend oil changes while lessening overall engine wear.

GM already has done 2 well funded studies to get the results of filtering motor oil to 5 microns, and SAE has written papers on by pass oil filtration. It mirrors GMs findings of their studies, there is plenty of information available to anyone that wants to educate themselves.

Blackstone (one of the top oil analysis labs in the US) labs fully endorses by pass filters if you want to lessen engine wear and safely extend oil changes. You can't just go longer between oil changes using the standard oil and filter, you'll just end up causing premature engine wear. The by pass filter is the key.

If you want to read their take on the matter here it is:

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/by-p...filtration.php

There is no down side to by pass filtering your oil, it's just people are set in their ways that won't move from what Detroit, and oil companies have ingrained in their minds over years about oil, filters, and intervals.

My father started in the automotive world working on the grease rack in a Pontiac dealer in the late 30s, and moved up to a line mechanic at the dealer. He was schooled to change oil every 1000 miles and never varied from that until in his late 80s when could no longer do his own oil changes. My mother then took over the car maintenance and the mechanic she took the car to told her it was a waste to be changing oil every 1000 miles. She started taking it in at 3000 mile intervals and my father was livid, and insisted that the oil needed to be changed at 1000 miles, no ifs, ands, or buts. I see that attitude here a lot...……...LOL

Heck, when I first started working on cars I was under 16 YO and I watched and listened to my Dad about oil changes. I changed my oil every 1000 miles because my father told me it was what I should be doing if I wanted my car to be trouble free. I worked up to 2000 miles, then 3000 miles, then 5000 miles, and now I'm over 30,000 miles, however to go from 5000, to 30,000 and more I had to make a major change in filter type, and I'm damn glad I did...…..

It's kind of like Pontiac guys, needing iron cylinder heads, Ram Air camshafts and never revving their engines over 5800 RPM, over time someone breaks outside of the box and proves there are better alternatives. How does that old Pontiac slogan go? Ahhh yes, "Break Away"!!!!

In the end, it's your engine, your wallet, and your free time, you have to decide what you want to do. If you want to do it the way it's been done for over 100 years, go for it.

[dataway]

In the big picture ... gotta be honest, I could care less about the $500. I still crap the same way they have for 100 years and it still works for me

My vehicle gets me from point A to point B ... when it gets a tear in the seat, I buy a new one. My tractors ... different story, I don't want to buy a new tractor, they cost a lot.

I won't put 100,000 miles on my GTO in 50 years, by then it will need a lot more than an oil change. My modern vehicles are gone before they hit 100K miles so not a factor there either.

I know I'm a bad man, I try to care .. but that chunk of metal from Mexico just doesn't mean that much to me.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by dataway

In the big picture ... gotta be honest, I could care less about the $500. I still crap the same way they have for 100 years and it still works for me

My vehicle gets me from point A to point B ... when it gets a tear in the seat, I buy a new one. My tractors ... different story, I don't want to buy a new tractor, they cost a lot.

I won't put 100,000 miles on my GTO in 50 years, by then it will need a lot more than an oil change. My modern vehicles are gone before they hit 100K miles so not a factor there either.

I know I'm a bad man, I try to care .. but that chunk of metal from Mexico just doesn't mean that much to me.

Dataway, I wasn't directing the post at you, it was to answer 64speeds post, however the last line works in either case.

In the end, it's your engine, your wallet, and your free time, you have to decide what you want to do. If you want to do it the way it's been done for over 100 years, go for it.

I only drive Pontiacs except for my trucks, so none are made in Mexico. Australia for the 05 GTO, the rest are made in America. Your fortunate to not have to care about saving a car, or truck, or $500, I can't say the same myself.

The best thing is I save time not laying under my vehicles changing oil and filters. Time is something no one can buy, you can waste it, but you can't get more of it. Wasting time is probably what I do every time I try to educate people on this forum about by pass filtering...….

By pass filtering is for any IC engine, so if your tractors can be saving engine wear too through better filtration. Especially since they are in a dirt environment. They could already have factory by pass filters, but if they don't, you'd be much further ahead to retrofit them. Heavy duty applications such as OTR trucks and industrial applications is where by pass filters are more commonly used. As you allude to, they cost a whole bunch more to repair/replace, than a car in comparison. FYI, by pass filters are also very useful in transmission applications where factory filters only address 40 micron particulate if that fine. Hydraulic systems in most machinery are usually in the 10 micron range by the manufacturer, hydraulics systems absolutely do not tolerate solids in the system.