[bird72]

OK, I can look at used car / truck trader rags and $10,000 transportation vehicles are a mixed bag of half worn outs, or funky stuff present, or just garbage, with decent vehicles mixed in, but most with a bunch of miles. So why do some hobbyists expect to find $10K or less, vintage vehicles, far rarer than the ones I described above, with shiny new engines, paint and nothing wrong? Oh and no incorrect parts

[dhcarguy]

Originally Posted by GTOnly70

Disagree. Any idiot can put a pie-in-the-sky price on a car - doesn't mean it's selling. There is lots of overpriced crap on this board in the Cars for Sale section. For months and months this junk gets "bumped to the top" by a seller who is desperately clinging to the "Greater Fool" theory. Precious few cars actually sell. The same is true for other venues, especially Craigslist.

And the big money guys are more interested in buying nice cars to start with, not dicking around with junk projects.

Agree...agree

[Fullsize455]

Originally Posted by bird72

OK, I can look at used car / truck trader rags and $10,000 transportation vehicles are a mixed bag of half worn outs, or funky stuff present, or just garbage, with decent vehicles mixed in, but most with a bunch of miles. So why do some hobbyists expect to find $10K or less, vintage vehicles, far rarer than the ones I described above, with shiny new engines, paint and nothing wrong? Oh and no incorrect parts

My assessment is based on constantly watching the market, scouring craigslist and other sites very regularly, maintaining a feel for what cars are actually selling for. It isn't hard to figure out, when something gets posted over and over and over again at a high price, week after week, month after month, it isn't selling at that price. Then when something comes up for a reasonable price and the ad is gone within a couple-few days, its logical to assume it probably sold closer to that asking price.

People who have more money to spend are not stupid about how they spend that money, contrary to that some folks apparently believe. Nobody who had a GTO in high school is going to way overpay for a Tempest with a big block Chevy and a goofy colored paint job.

Lets be honest here, when it comes to most of these sought after classic cars, they WILL sell quickly if the price is right. They won't if the price is too high. There are also lots to choose from, so somebody looking for their high school GTO doesn't need to buy a way overpriced goofy Tempest for a price he can find a good driver GTO for. That just doesn't happen in practice. I guarantee you I can find a decent driver '66 GTO for $35k within a short period of time.

Comparing classic car prices to modern daily drivers is pointless. Totally different cars, for totally different buyers who are not cross shopping them even slightly, so any similarities or differences in pricing are irrelevant. The market for $10k used modern daily drivers is completely different from the $10k classic car market in basically every way.

Fact is, most of the classics listed in this thread are readily available for sale somewhere if someone is looking. Regular availability in the market means anyone can research what others are selling for, which translates to a rough price cap for different types of cars. Basket case project GTOs that need $50k+ in restoration work simply don't sell for $18k when a good driver can be had for somewhere in the high $20ks - $30ks. Goofy Tempests with Chevy motors don't sell for more than nice GTOs with Pontiac motors.

The myth about older folks with money way overpaying for their high school dream cars is largely a myth, and the odd exception to it involves proper pedigree cars, not half-ass base models with all the wrong stuff.

[dataway]

I think our crowd here is a distorted view of the hobby than comes from in depth knowledge of the business. I work in a business where I meet hundreds of people a week than can't even change their oil. And many of them think old junk is worth big dollars, and many of them pay big dollars for old junk. They watch some shows on discovery channel, imagine they are going to buy a few tools and build themselves a rat rod. When these (mostly younger people) are paying $5000 for a $1500 piece of junk, it drives up the prices across the board.

For every ONE of us here, there are FIVE "civilians" that want a GTO and don't even know what it is. I'm telling you, there are some stupid people out there buying old cars. And don't tell me a 25 year old guy, making $240,000 in an internet startup is not making some stupid decisions, they are out there too.

And .... from what I can tell, there are a ton of restoration shops out there that ARE making a ton from people that just drop off junk and want it made right, and are not that concerned about price.

Just because you guys are smart, doesn't mean everyone is.

[Fullsize455]

Originally Posted by dataway

I think our crowd here is a distorted view of the hobby than comes from in depth knowledge of the business. I work in a business where I meet hundreds of people a week than can't even change their oil. And many of them think old junk is worth big dollars, and many of them pay big dollars for old junk. They watch some shows on discovery channel, imagine they are going to buy a few tools and build themselves a rat rod. When these (mostly younger people) are paying $5000 for a $1500 piece of junk, it drives up the prices across the board.

For every ONE of us here, there are FIVE "civilians" that want a GTO and don't even know what it is. I'm telling you, there are some stupid people out there buying old cars. And don't tell me a 25 year old guy, making $240,000 in an internet startup is not making some stupid decisions, they are out there too.

And .... from what I can tell, there are a ton of restoration shops out there that ARE making a ton from people that just drop off junk and want it made right, and are not that concerned about price.

Just because you guys are smart, doesn't mean everyone is.

I've been aggressively involved in this hobby for the better part of 20 years, and I very rarely come across the people you describe when it comes to buying cars. Now, I come across people allllll the time that dump way too much money into their cars once they have them, but that's different than how people approach buying the car in the first place.

I hear people talk about these folks who drastically overpay for cars all the time, yet I just don't meet them in practice. And I basically never meet them when selling either, be it cars or parts or tools or anything else. When I price something right, it sells quick. When I get greedy and ask even a little bit extra(say 25%), it is often a struggle until I bring it down closer to reality. This has been true for everything I have ever sold, from cars to parts to tools to high end camera equipment, antiques, etc etc.. These mythical wealthy folks who spend foolishly just aren't out there in my world.

[dataway]

I think the key might be "My World" ... although I'm not young, my world is populated by people that are on average about 25 years old .... completely different world. These kids have trust funds, go to $60/year colleges, have great educations and yearn to weld, or be a carpenter, grow a beard, wear flannel .... and they no longer want the latest cool "Beemer". I can't tell you how many of these kids have offered to PAY ME, to help me in my welding shop ... so they could learn something from an "old timer".

I am NOT talking about mature adults that are members of the vintage car community. I started seeing this 15 years ago during the "Cafe-Racer" craze among the hipsters, they were paying three times the real value to buy late 60's and early 70's small displacement bikes.

They are basically exactly who I was 40 years ago. I would have paid twice what I actually paid for my GTO, and I wasted countless thousands making it "fast and cool" ... these people are still out there.

Be honest, when is the last time any of you over 50 spent five hours in a night talking to 100 people under 30? I do it three times a week. It's a whole different world out there, if I didn't do it for work, I would have no idea they even exist, or have any clue what they do with their lives. Heck, I even know a 17 year old that just bought a 63 Ford.

Something is driving the stupid prices. Something is always driving stupid prices when they start showing up. It always starts out with prices that seem stupid ... then a few years later they don't seem that ridiculous anymore. And the stupidity always shows up on Craig List first

Oh yeah ... the 17 year kid has the 63 Ford, something like a 38 Ford .... and he bought a "Blue Bird" school bus cause he thought it was cool.

[Fullsize455]

Hipsters aren't buying classic muscle cars for inflated prices. They just aren't. Go to any car show and pay attention to who owns what. I'm not sure what world this is that you speak of where you talk to all these youngans, but it doesn't sound like it's a world specifically related to classic cars.

I recently spent a week walking around Hot August Nights in Reno, hob-nobbing and talking with countless folks about their cars. I go to all the local car shows here. When I was in the hipster-overrun bay area, I never missed a Goodguys show, never missed the summer downtown car shows in Danville(one of the wealthier parts of the bay area), frequently went to all manner of local car shows.. not to mention, as a mechanic working specifically on classic cars and someone who interacts with a wide spectrum of people in this hobby overall, I just don't see any folks wildly overpaying for cars, most especially not the millenials you speak of. They are the last ones to do so, in fact. I see them spend wildly on all kinds of other things, like much newer cars, clothes, cell phones, etc etc., but not classic cars. The young folks I see getting involved in the classic car world generally buy the kinds of cars that would be largely ignored on this forum and other enthusiast forums like it, and they tend to do most of the work themselves. In fact, probably the largest subset of the younger crowd interested in classic cars is the ghetto crowd, who tend to build donks and other garbage, as well as lowriders and the more common and mundane muscle cars like Mustangs and Chevelles. They spend money more wildly than most, and they still aren't buying $35k goody Tempests.

I have no doubt that hipsters would spend lavishly on classic muscle cars if they somehow became popular amongst the hipster crowd.. but they aren't. At all. Not even slightly.

[Greg Reid]

I kind of like that '69 GTO...but not at that price. Maybe half that.. Doesn't want to trade for anything unless it's a Chevelle.

[GTOnly70]

Enough with the conjecture. Somebody...anybody... please provide some evidence of clapped out, cobbled-together 1960s-70s Pontiac junk projects selling for 3x a "common sense" price. Let's hear some actual, verified transactions. Talking "average" Pontiacs here, including standard, work-a-day GTOs, not rare examples. Not interested in stories about motorcycles, antiques, or other "collectibles."

I'm quite certain it ain't happening (I know it hasn't happened on this forum), but I'm all ears and will wait to be proven wrong.

[Fullsize455]

Originally Posted by Greg Reid

I kind of like that '69 GTO...but not at that price. Maybe half that.. Doesn't want to trade for anything unless it's a Chevelle.

Oh absolutely, that GTO is definitely worth saving and somebody would do exactly that if it was available at a fair price. It's impossible to buy that car for $18k and not be all kinds of upside down on it no matter how frugal you are, so it's just not going to sell at that price. I was thinking $8-9k TOPS myself, so I think you're right on with that estimate. I'd encourage anyone here to put their money where their mouth is and buy it if you think $18k is a fair deal for it.

Yes, people absolutely do get upside down when fixing up classic cars, but most people do so by not keeping track of their expenditures over longer periods of time, and being emotionally invested in seeing it through. Most people do not want to be way upside down on something the second they sign the title.

[Fullsize455]

Originally Posted by GTOnly70

Enough with the conjecture. Somebody...anybody... please provide some evidence of clapped out, cobbled-together 1960s-70s Pontiac junk projects selling for 3x a "common sense" price. Let's hear some actual, verified transactions. Talking "average" Pontiacs here, including standard, work-a-day GTOs, not rare examples. Not interested in stories about motorcycles, antiques, or other "collectibles."

I'm quite certain it ain't happening (I know it hasn't happened on this forum), but I'm all ears and will wait to be proven wrong.

I suspect this is part of the reason people won't talk about price. If there are any knuckleheads that are way overpaying for their cars, we may never hear about it because they're too embarrassed to admit their foolishness.

[1965gp]

So to be clear we expect a rust free GTO (think it was running and driving when I read the ad) for $8/9k? Put me to the front of the line because I will buy three of them.

As was said- this is a very educated group; these cars sell day in / day out across the country for good money. Not sure if it’s to hipsters (but they do seem to be into fabrication) but they are selling for decent $$.

You average buyer goes to NADA and thinks the #3 car they are looking at is concourse and they think they are getting a deal

[Fullsize455]

Originally Posted by 1965gp

So to be clear we expect a rust free GTO (think it was running and driving when I read the ad) for $8/9k? Put me to the front of the line because I will buy three of them.

As was said- this is a very educated group; these cars sell day in / day out across the country for good money. Not sure if it’s to hipsters (but they do seem to be into fabrication) but they are selling for decent $$.

You average buyer goes to NADA and thinks the #3 car they are looking at is concourse and they think they are getting a deal

Where is this rust-free GTO you speak of? It isn't in my post with several links in it. If you're referring the '69 hardtop for $18k, that is a VERY rough base GTO with no mention of whether or not it has rust, does not run and obviously needs full resto. If you want to buy that car for $18k, be my guest. I'm guessing you won't.

[Fullsize455]

One look through these SOLD listings on eBay should tell you everything you need to know. That '69 hardtop is perhaps a $7-8k car now that I've seen this.

These are prices that these cars actually sold for.

https://www.ebay.com/b/1969-Pontiac-...t=nc&LH_Sold=1

[1965gp]

I’m just saying that is a very restorable car, running or not. We would all pay $8-9k for this car (you stated above you think it is a $8-9k car max). The car seemed very solid, biggest problem was the dent in the door/quarter. No major body surgery is a big plus.

Message boards that focus on specific makes/models seem to have a skewed view of what that model car is worth until they try to sell it.

Btw the ad was deleted. Think maybe it sold???

[Fullsize455]

What ad was the deleted? The '69 hardtop ad is still up. So no, it hasn't sold.

I think some people might pay $8-9k for it. That's half his asking price or less. I sure wouldn't pay that for it, but I'm also not specifically looking for a '69 GTO. I'm also not in the habit of paying above market price for ANY car, regardless of whether I really want it or not. Hell, I walked away from my holy grail car once, only to go back and buy it a week later for a much lower price that was finally palatable for me. Everyone should have as much buyer's discipline.

Again, a base, low option '69 hardtop isn't that rare a car. Look on eBay, take your pick. Anybody who wants one can go buy one in practically any condition they want tomorrow. That means prices stay reasonable.

[dataway]

All you gotta do is go to ebay and see the guys selling hundreds of old radiator caps for $200-300 a piece. NOS fender for $1500 etc. etc. There are thousand of examples. But yeah, I guess no one is over paying for anything.
Ebay is rife with examples of people paying five times what various car items are worth. And yes it applies to cars too, whether it happens to you or not. Bear in mind, the VAST majority of cars are still not sold on ebay or Craigs List, so we don't see what is being paid for them.
Right now it is FAR easier to sell a $3000 car for $8000 than it is to sell a $35,000 car for $30,000.

[Fullsize455]

Originally Posted by dataway

All you gotta do is go to ebay and see the guys selling hundreds of old radiator caps for $200-300 a piece. NOS fender for $1500 etc. etc. There are thousand of examples. But yeah, I guess no one is over paying for anything.
Ebay is rife with examples of people paying five times what various car items are worth. And yes it applies to cars too, whether it happens to you or not. Bear in mind, the VAST majority of cars are still not sold on ebay or Craigs List, so we don't see what is being paid for them.
Right now it is FAR easier to sell a $3000 car for $8000 than it is to sell a $35,000 car for $30,000.

This post makes it as clear as ever that you really don't have a clue what you're talking about. But you're welcome to prove me wrong by posting some evidence to support your argument like I did mine.

[dataway]

Hey ... don't get your panties in a bunch. Everyone has a right to their opinion.

You think whatever you want, I'll think what I want.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Corvette-Vintage-Real-GM-AC-Supply-Tank-Radiator-Cap-RC-26-Air-Conditioned-15/372507782027?hash=item56bb31ab8b:g:NmsAAOSwBFVbhMC O:rk:2f:0

This guy has sold dozens of these.

And you are basically "arguing" with yourself, I'm not involved.

[Fullsize455]

Originally Posted by dataway

Hey ... don't get your panties in a bunch. Everyone has a right to their opinion.

You think whatever you want, I'll think what I want.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Corvette-Vintage-Real-GM-AC-Supply-Tank-Radiator-Cap-RC-26-Air-Conditioned-15/372507782027?hash=item56bb31ab8b:g:NmsAAOSwBFVbhMC O:rk:2f:0

This guy has sold dozens of these.

And you are basically "arguing" with yourself, I'm not involved.

Absolutely hilarious. You came in here posting your opinion and an attempt at a counterargument, yet then try to say you aren't involved? That's just hilarious. Good luck with that.

Please, explain to me how a Corvette radiator cap with zero bids is somehow evidence that cars regularly sell for double market value. This ought to be good...