[Will]

RE: Ballooning torque converters.

Is it possible for a torque converter to expand/balloon while in operation but "shrink" back to normal when not rotating?

[1967Tempest]

I bought my cam based on GTOFREEK's recommendation, and I love it!!!! Keep at it, these things have happened to all of us. I adjusted my lifters 100'2 of times to find out it was an exhaust leak.

This is what happened to my friends Mustang last year from a failed lifter that was adjusted incorrectly..

[Va68goat]

Well, yesterday, I trailered the car to "LeGoaT/As" shop and we got some work done to the car. We switched out the flexplate, had the torque converter pulled back and started the car. The exact same knocking noise was present. We called Paul and told him the knocking noise was still there. Now...hopefully "LeGoaT/As" will chime in here because I'm pretty sure that I will miss something and not explain it correctly but I'll give it a try. Paul suggested that we pull the timing chain cover off and ensure the cam bolt was tightened (I think thats what it's called). LeGoaT/As verified there were no issues with the timing chain and everything was snug and correct. Paul then suggested that we pull the distributer and turn the oil pump. We turned the pump and and LeGoaT/As and I noticed that was a slight "clicking" noise and there seemed to be some unusual resistance. LeGoaT/As had a short block 400 motor in his shop that had oil in it and we turned that oil pump. There was a difference between the short block oil pump and my motor. I called Paul and let him know what we discovered. I'm waiting to here back. LeGoaT/As feel free to chime in here because I'm sure I didn't explain this as well as you could.

[dataway]

In my exhaustive study of the sound file extracted from the original movies you posted ... the sound was half engine speed ... but no one believed me.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

"There was a difference between the short block oil pump and my motor. "

"Difference"...details of this ?

Hope this (is?) isn't another quality issue with an aftermarket part!
Lord knows they're widespread.

I had a new one, Melling M54DS, sitting in box, in my bedroom, the driven gear seized to the idler shaft, and I mean locked up tighter than a whore's heart. Purchased about 3 years ago.
They did switch to the thin lower plate from the previous one I bought... 20+ years ago, same pump but old one came in a Sealed Power box.

[Va68goat]

dataway,

"LeGoaT/As" and I actually spoke about the sound file that you did. We referred to that and the slow motion video that I took. That was very helpful and I appreciate what you took the time to do. The thing is Paul and Jeff requested / suggested several things to rule out before having to send the motor back. The thing is this...I was told by Paul and Jeff that if I send the motor back to them and they can't repeat the knocking noise, I'm going to have to pay for shipping to and from Arizona. I already have spent $1,600 in parts, tools and fluids conducting diagnosis on this motor since I've received it. Not including over 80 hours of friends helping me trying to figure out the problem.
If the issue turns out to be something on their end, they agreed to cover the cost of shipping to and from. There is no denying that the noise at first start is the same as the noise that is happening now with the exception of the windage tray that was being hit due to the incorrect spacing.

STEELCITYFIREBIRD,

I'm going to do my best to describe the difference. I have ZERO experience with this stuff but here is my best untrained explanation. When we used a screwdriver to turn the oil pump quickly by hand, there seemed to be a "clicking noise" and there was some resistance. I really don't have the experience with cars to have a reference point as to what it's supposed to feel like and sound like. So, LeGoaT/As had a short block with an oil pump on it and the pan had oil. When I turned the oil pump on the short block, there was no clicking noise and the resistance was not as great. I don't know if the difference in oil pumps could be the explanation for the difference in the resistance and that "clicking" noise. I know when Paul built my motor there was an issue with the pickup tube and he had to weld the pickup tube to the oil pump.

LeGoaT/As also used an old distributor and attached a drill to it to turn the oil pump. The resistance was more pronounced through the use of the drill because we had more consistent revolution using the drill (we spun the pump at a lower speed, not maxed out that the drill could do). I hope this makes sense and I'm explaining it well enough for you guys to get a better feel of what is going on.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

"clicking " with drill on your engine? Or only with screwdriver?

The short block had no valve train so less oil pressure resistance. Hard to make a comparison, too many variables can and are likely present.

Send it to Paul, get it moving... figure out the cost allocations privately!!

You've done due diligence and a lot of cooks been in the kitchen, time to get it moving forward!

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by STEELCITYFIREBIRD

The short block had no valve train so less oil pressure resistance. Hard to make a comparison, too many variables can and are likely present.

If lifters were in it, it would have built oil pressure all the same.

Resistance comparison would require "identical" conditions: pump clearances, bearing clearances, oil weight, temperature, etc...

Resistance should increase with RPM (oil pressure climbing) untill the relief valve opened where the turning resistance would level off.

I'm sticking with surgical clean and thorough oil and filter inspection being desperately needed. Bottom of pan swabbed through drain hole. Check any residue, metalic dust, flakes, for being ferous or nonferous. It's the only way I know of checking without a visual tear down and inspection.

Clay

[Va68goat]

STEELCITYFIREBIRD,

The clicking was present when we turned it with the screwdriver. All the cooks in the kitchen didn't do anything, replace anything or test anything without the suggestion of the chef (Paul). Yeah, I'm waiting for Paul's phone call to see what the next step is. Paul has been great and I know he wants this motor correct as much as I do.

[Va68goat]

QUICK-SILVER,

The short block did have the lifters in it. The car has around 200 miles on it and I've changed the oil 3 times already and we haven't seen anything disturbing. $80.00 at every oil change, it's getting pretty expensive. I guess that's another thing that can be done again though.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Scuffed, scared, imbedded particles in oil pump gears will make them go clickety click. First oil filter pic showed where gold looking flakes had went through the oil pump.

Pinch gun patches in the end of a piece of wire to swab the bottom of the oil pan through the drain hole. Stick a flex end pocket magnet in the drain hole to fish around for any magnetic particles or gray pastey gunk. Inspect the filter and contents good. Especially for anything that sticks to a magnet. Stick a strong magnet on the bottom of the oil filter before you take it off and cut it open.

Fresh clean oil can be saved and poured back in the engine.

200 miles and three oil changes....I wouldn't want to find anything in the pan or filter. Other than clean oil.

Clay

Clay

[chiphead]

*constructive criticism incoming*

You've been janking with this thing forever. The noise is coming from inside the engine. Why is it not out and apart?

Your best opportunity to send it back "clean" was when you had it out and found the windage tray issue. Now the water is pretty muddy and it just needs fixed. Stop worrying about the warranty, or the shipping costs and just fix the car. You guys could have had it out and shipped, or out and fixed by now.

Life is short. Every day brings the risk of medical or financial crisis that will torpedo the project. Fix the car now while you can.

[wbnapier]

[QUOTE=STEELCITYFIREBIRD;5988764]"There was a difference between the short block oil pump and my motor. "

... locked up tighter than a whore's heart...

I haven't heard that one. I'll have to borrow it that saying if you don't mind.

[1968GTO421]

Originally Posted by chiphead

*constructive criticism incoming*

You've been janking with this thing forever. The noise is coming from inside the engine. Why is it not out and apart?

Your best opportunity to send it back "clean" was when you had it out and found the windage tray issue. Now the water is pretty muddy and it just needs fixed. Stop worrying about the warranty, or the shipping costs and just fix the car. You guys could have had it out and shipped, or out and fixed by now.

Life is short. Every day brings the risk of medical or financial crisis that will torpedo the project. Fix the car now while you can.

So true. A medical crisis that kept getting worse in 2017 (and is still presenting problems) has really knocked my project off track.

Listen to Chip, he speaks truth.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

ABSOLUTELY No blame on the “cooks” at all...just get it back to the Chief Chef!

Awesome that these great guys here helped you, something rare these days indeed!
A Testament to the Great company we keep here.

You’ve exhausted external possibilities it appears.

[dataway]

VA68 ... my last post was meant to be more humorous than serious. From my analysis it did appear the sound was half engine speed ... to me. But I certainly would not expect any competent engine builder or mechanic to take that as a fact. I was just trying to add some info to the mix.

I am however a true believer that a good sound tech, a couple of programmers and a half dozen good builders could develop software that could analyze an engines exact problem merely by the sounds the problem produces. An RPM sensor, couple of transducers on the engine and a database of known sound profiles.

But that is a discussion for another time.

[tooski]

I thought that when you found that the clicking occurred when you turned only the oil pump that no one suggested removing the oil pump and investigate that before shipping the whole engine back n forth. Of course easier done with engine pulled (but you would have to do that anyway to send it back).

[Va68goat]

tooski,

I'm sending the oil pump and distributor to Paul. I spoke to him today and he suggested that I do that. I trust Paul 100% and I know he wants this whole situation taken care of. I know he wants this motor right as much as I do. I can't tell you guys enough how great Paul has been. I know he's not use to having this happen to one of his motors but I still don't regret for one second going through him for the motor. He's a true professional and stands by his builds! I'll keep you guys updated.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Do the oil and filter inspection.

If you pull the engine (and I would) Drop the pan and windage tray before you flip the engine over.

Take pictures to document what you find.

Inspect for anything that could be bumping/rubbing/touching with the crank and rods. Check crank end play.

If the engine needs/has to go back....Sending pump and distributor is just delaying the inevitable.

If you find more flakes and metalic looking gunk AND the filter bypass is still functional....Chances are the stuff has been pumped through eveything in the engine. Tiny stuff will damage bearings and mess up hydraulic lifters making the plungers not hold. Valve train parts, including lifters, have done been changed trying to stop the tapping noises you can hear from the top. If gunk is getting pumped through the oil...replacement lifters would tap like the originals.

Still thinking what you can hear from the top ain't the same as what you hear from the bottom. Two different things going on and one may be causing the other.

Some more inspecting needed done first time the pan was off. If Paul doesn't see stuff in pics, post and ask here.

Clay

[TedRamAirII]

The oil pump should turn smooth, no bumps, hard spots or clicking. Was the oil pressure gauge steady, it may be dampened too much to pick up small fluctuations. Did it make noises when turning with the drill? If I remember the noise video, it was at half speed.