[slowbird]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

We are going back nearly 10 years here, but I think that set-up actually produced in metal was for an Oldsmobile V-8. If my memory serves Mr. Anderson was working with Cody, (last name?) at Joe Mondello Racing Engines and they had cut that unit out for Oldsmobile installation. I do remember him posting somewhere a similar unit for a Pontiac in a CAD format of some type. But not sure if one was ever made. Steve Barcak and a couple other guys have made multi-piece reinforcement girdles for Pontiac blocks. As an engine machinist, I like the multi-piece design from a service standpoint. Having a one-piece girdle/main cap bridge is a complete nightmare when it comes time to line bore/hone the mains. Conventional engine machining equipment can't handle a piece like this. Now your into CNC machining for routine service. A deep skirted block with 7/16" or 1/2" cross bolts and individual caps would be the best for strength and service. For big HP, a stock design Pontiac block just doesn't have the material in the right places to create the best possible lower end. If you use 9/16" fasteners in the center bolt holes, there is very little material left to hold them. The outer splayed holes as well if large fasteners are used, very little material to hold them. A much smaller main bearing would help by allowing more material around them to hold the caps. The original 180 HP design from 1955 has it's limits. The 3000 HP a few are making out there is probably close.

How small of a main you wanting? Curious what will live at these high loads?

[Scott Roberts]

[QUOTE=slowbird;6028636]How small of a main you wanting? Curious what will live at these high loads?[/QUOTE

2.75 (bbc) mains are used in fuel applications...

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by chiefbigb

Dragncar you and that scarecrow from the wizard of oz have allot in common

Where are ya going with that chiefofstirthe$h!t IQ ?, come on big boy. I know where I stand. How about you ?
You seem to have this thing about making a crack where I am involved. I a uninvited sort of way. Its wearing thin.
Somehow I doubt you would be doing it face to face. Well, you might do it once.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Lmfao!!

There is a difference between me and you. I have no pretentious I am one of the big boys. Just bracket race at the level I can afford and still keep it all together.
I have a great interest in ultimate Pontiac power.
I am building a kinda big engine just because I want to feel the power.
You think you are one of the big boys, wanna be in the club.

I would have to believe that if you have seen the pictures I have of exploded boosted Pontiac iron race blocks you would come to the conclusion that it is holding them back.
But you want to argue the point. Just because you want to prove you are smarter than me I guess.
I mean, hasn't anyone sent you some of those pics ?

[chiefbigb]

I would say the same thing in person. I promise that. Your resima in the engine building world is blank yet you speak as some sort of expert. You have done nothing but pound keys on a board. I get so tired of reading your bull crap. You will never make enough power to damage a aftermarket block. Hell to really learn anything about them you would have to build one and run it which you have not. Go back to the kiddy pool

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

There is a difference between me and you. I have no pretentious I am one of the big boys. Just bracket race at the level I can afford and still keep it all together.
I have a great interest in ultimate Pontiac power.
I am building a kinda big engine just because I want to feel the power.
You think you are one of the big boys, wanna be in the club.

I would have to believe that if you have seen the pictures I have of exploded boosted Pontiac iron race blocks you would come to the conclusion that it is holding them back.
But you want to argue the point. Just because you want to prove you are smarter than me I guess.
I mean, hasn't anyone sent you some of those pics ?

Just explain how a skirted block is holding back Boss Bird or Butler and their customers? I'd bet head gaskets and burnt pistons are a far greater issue than mains being ripped out. Maybe im wrong??

[mgarblik]

As Scott Roberts said, 2.750 is common in current top fuel applications, 10,000 HP+ and 10,000 RPM's. But that's not the entire story of course. These main sizes are housed in a structural cage, a deep skirt, cross bolted arrangement. Most all of these blocks have 9/16" main bolts, very long and deep into the block. The cross bolts are 1/2" minimum. Some have a 5/8", 9/16" combination of fasteners set deep into the structure of the block. The goal is to provide a straight tunnel for the crankshaft to turn in under load. No way that's going to happen with the heaviest load being imparted to an unsupported section of the block just hanging out in the oil pan. We do the best we can with what we have. I will never be convinced it's the best for maximum HP. I love Pontiac's but they were never designed for 3000+ HP. None of these stock block designs were. That's why clean sheet of paper billet blocks exist. It's nostalgia, pure and simple.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Just explain how a skirted block is holding back Boss Bird or Butler and their customers? I'd bet head gaskets and burnt pistons are a far greater issue than mains being ripped out. Maybe im wrong??

Just happened to catch your post. Believe it or not, we are still on our first set of head gaskets from 2011!. 10 head studs, 9/16". The secret is the solid, billet head. Thick and uniform around the studs, Eric did a wonderful design job leaving lots of clamp column around each stud. It's clamped down tight and doesn't move. Pistons, well, that's an entire different story. The fuel guys just call them "fuses" and we do go through a bunch of them. The Darton sleeves are super tough. We can destroy a piston and put a new one right back in the same sleeve, not a scratch most of the time. The sleeves get torn-up if the piston damage is bad enough to twist the hell out of an oil ring. Then the oil ring acts like a stainless steel cutting tool. We have killed only one sleeve so far. Main bearings need tons of oil and tons of clearance. Then they seem to live OK. But I am always concerned.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

As Scott Roberts said, 2.750 is common in current top fuel applications, 10,000 HP+ and 10,000 RPM's. But that's not the entire story of course. These main sizes are housed in a structural cage, a deep skirt, cross bolted arrangement. Most all of these blocks have 9/16" main bolts, very long and deep into the block. The cross bolts are 1/2" minimum. Some have a 5/8", 9/16" combination of fasteners set deep into the structure of the block. The goal is to provide a straight tunnel for the crankshaft to turn in under load. No way that's going to happen with the heaviest load being imparted to an unsupported section of the block just hanging out in the oil pan. We do the best we can with what we have. I will never be convinced it's the best for maximum HP. I love Pontiac's but they were never designed for 3000+ HP. None of these stock block designs were. That's why clean sheet of paper billet blocks exist. It's nostalgia, pure and simple.

Are you guys so concerned about main bearing/cap walk that it has effect how hard you push the tune? If you guys had a skirted block, you think you'd be running a higher % of nitro or more blower overdrive?

[Scott Roberts]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Just happened to catch your post. Believe it or not, we are still on our first set of head gaskets from 2011!. 10 head studs, 9/16". The secret is the solid, billet head. Thick and uniform around the studs, Eric did a wonderful design job leaving lots of clamp column around each stud. It's clamped down tight and doesn't move. Pistons, well, that's an entire different story. The fuel guys just call them "fuses" and we do go through a bunch of them. The Darton sleeves are super tough. We can destroy a piston and put a new one right back in the same sleeve, not a scratch most of the time. The sleeves get torn-up if the piston damage is bad enough to twist the hell out of an oil ring. Then the oil ring acts like a stainless steel cutting tool. We have killed only one sleeve so far. Main bearings need tons of oil and tons of clearance. Then they seem to live OK. But I am always concerned.

If you dont mind sharing, curious what kind of clearances you run..we ran .005 on mains and .004 on rods with alcohol with 140psi. Never had any issues bit not running at your hp level either

[mgarblik]

We are at .006-.0065 on the mains. .004-.0045 on the rods. 70W oil, Eric would have to confirm oil pressure from data system, but I think down track hot we are at 165 PSI+ all the time. As we have made the passages larger and the clearances larger, the oil pressure has dropped to this general range. We have been over 200 PSI at times. As far as tune-up, nitro % and so forth, I really leave that up to Eric and Jerry our nitro tuner. I wouldn't say the non-skirted block has had a conscious effect on our tune. It's still more a function of limited on-track time and the potential astronomical cost of a bad tune-up. Less than a second under power takes a nice engine and turns it into aluminum cole slaw. So we just have to be really conservative and careful with the tune, baby steps. We just don't have a choice. Tuning the wedge head engine is difficult because of all the liquid moving through the cylinders. The Ram Air V layout is weird enough that every cylinder acts a little different as far as what it wants for fuel. The angled spark plugs cause issues on some cylinders under power because they are submerged in fuel while other cylinders are uncovered from the liquid under G-force. It's really different from a Hemi where the spark plugs are up high and centered in the chamber out of the fuel and their are 2 spark plugs. We are running 35-38 LBS of boost which is enough to run well into the 5's with the perfect tune and traction. Like most of the Pontiac guys running high HP engines, we just can't get to the track enough in one season to really sort it completely out. A sponsor would help quite a bit, but we do what we can. We plan to run good this year. Hope to fire the engine in about a week.

[Elarson]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Are you guys so concerned about main bearing/cap walk that it has effect how hard you push the tune? If you guys had a skirted block, you think you'd be running a higher % of nitro or more blower overdrive?

The short answer is: not yet. A tuning mistake with nitro can be pretty catastrophic so we're going up in baby steps. Too rich and cylinders drop. Too lean and the entire engine grenades.

We're at 90% now (with minor tweaks plus or minus for weather). I don't see that changing. Further improvements will involve more fuel volume and more blower overdrive. Unfortunately, changing blower OD can affect cylinder distribution so it's not just a simple step up the ladder.

I can partially answer Scott's question. Mains are in the range of .006-.007. .005 clearance wouldn't flow enough oil. We've heard of big show fuel cars running upwards of .010 on mains. Mike will have to weigh in on rod clearance.

The solid IA block is amazing but it will have a limit somewhere that we haven't found yet. A skirted cross-bolted block would be stronger but the reality is that the solid IA block does what we need at half the price of billet.

Eric

[John Langer]

Visner has a design for a billet skirted Pontiac block. 2 are scheduled to be completed in September. I have no clue who they are for but did get a quote on one and it comes with a billet oil pan. We are talking serious plumber money, serious... he also has a design for an unskilled version, that one, that isn't for the average enthusiast either. At that point, you just spend the extra 2k for the skirted one.

[Elarson]

Yes..... not sure of the point of getting a billet block carved up without getting skirted mains.

Eric

[Scott Roberts]

Originally Posted by John Langer

Visner has a design for a billet skirted Pontiac block. 2 are scheduled to be completed in September. I have no clue who they are for but did get a quote on one and it comes with a billet oil pan. We are talking serious plumber money, serious... he also has a design for an unskilled version, that one, that isn't for the average enthusiast either. At that point, you just spend the extra 2k for the skirted one.

I would guess for a Pontiac ( low volume) skirted block you're in the 8-10k range..

[John Langer]

Originally Posted by Scott Roberts

I would guess for a Pontiac ( low volume) skirted block you're in the 8-10k range..

You are not even in the ball park. I said serious plumber money. High volume non skirted sbc and bbc are in the 8k range. It is close to 17 for a skirted Pontiac block w oil pan. Rumor has it you will be into it for close to 25 for a set of heads, intake, valve covers and shaft bars. That's a steal compared to my cv-juans.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by chiefbigb

I would say the same thing in person. I promise that. Your resima in the engine building world is blank yet you speak as some sort of expert. You have done nothing but pound keys on a board. I get so tired of reading your bull crap. You will never make enough power to damage a aftermarket block. Hell to really learn anything about them you would have to build one and run it which you have not. Go back to the kiddy pool

So, chiefofculturalappropriation, what you want me to do is stick my tail between my legs so you can do you keyboard wannabe bully thing. (BTW, am am a Indian, belong to a tribe and would never use "chief" in my screen name)
I am not speaking as any sort of expert. Just because you say I am means nothing. Simply not true.
I have no plans on even trying to reach the capability of a IA2. It would be catastrophic for what I do.
But, what you want is to bully or shame me into not even talking about the highest levels of Pontiac Power because YOU do not want me too.
You are just one phony D bag punk. I do not care how much land you have or what tractor outfit you are a tech at. A D bag is a D bag and you sir are a giant one.
Have you seen what happened this last page ?. I brought up skirted blocks. Now we just got some real info on the subject and what it takes to make big power Pontiacs live. From some of the most accomplished Pontiac racers there have ever been. I have a ton of respect for them. You, not so much.
See, what this site, this section is about is learning something and sharing information. Got it done. Goal accomplished.
None of those guys have ever given me anything close to your BS. Says a lot about them. And a lot about YOU. You are always going to have to reading my "bull crap". Get used to it. Or just be a whiny little b!tch, your choice.

One more thing, we can always do the poster of me over your bed, on the wife's side. Bet she is a tired of you as I am. Now go crawl back under your rock, I am done with you. People are trying to share information here.

[chiefbigb]

Yeah man your awesome. Let's see. Weekend before last I was at our local pow wow and helped a vet put a alternator on his wife's crv which is a pain. Yesterday I did a group ride that raised 17k for a 7 year old boy with heart disease. You know so much

[chiefbigb]

I guess some of my problem with your statements stem from the end of your last post. You are trying to extract information and have none to share. High end programs that have evolved over time from where you currently are know what is needed to move forward. It's easy to look at a blown alcohol or fuel engine design and say well that's what we need and think your some genius. Today's cnc equipment can do about anything the programmer can dream up but at the end there is a price to pay. The people that can afford them will get them. Not because someone said it's the way to go it will be because they with hands on experiance learned they have hit a wall due to an inferior design.

[Chris Petersen]

There has been a main cap support, I think it was made by Bill I beleave, and installed on a KRE block at a shop a few miles from me. A member here, but dont think he posts here anymore.