[Va68goat]

The gas that is in the tank is not the gas that I put in when it was first started. The motor has just shy of 250 miles on it. The tank was completely empty right before we discovered the witness marks on the oil pump shaft. Gas was added to the tank and the knocking was still there. The motor was then sent to Arizona.

The gas was 30 minutes old when the motor was first started and the knocking noise was present. This is a brand new gas tank. The heads were inspected and got a clean bill of health.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[grivera]

Good points Mike as a process of elimination. Can the same be accomplished with Seafoam down the carb?

On the other hand, Joe says when using a listening device the sound seems to be concentrated in the dizzy area. This, coupled with the witness marks on oil pump shaft begs of further exploration there. Based on all that is known, the wear on dizzy bushing vs the oil pump shaft witness marks is a chicken/egg scenario as to what occurred first.

[HWYSTR455]

Ah, the tanks was installed later, I wasn't clear on when that exactly happened.

So was going back over the thread some, listening to the slowed down vids, and looking at the dizzy pics Paul posted. It certainly appears to be half crank speed, and the wear on the bushing is to one side.

So the distributor gear was replaced when the shaft/bushing issue was discovered?

Then maybe it is the gear on the cam, but wow, I have never seen that, though guess it is a possibility, and that could possibly explain why this has been overlooked.

I say swap the dizzy and while it's out, turn the engine over and look down the hole, see if there is a noticeable wobble to the cam gear. It's a stretch, but guess it's still something that should be checked/eliminated.



.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

So the distributor gear was replaced when the shaft/bushing issue was discovered?

Then maybe it is the gear on the cam, but wow, I have never seen that, though guess it is a possibility, and that could possibly explain why this has been overlooked.

I say swap the dizzy and while it's out, turn the engine over and look down the hole, see if there is a noticeable wobble to the cam gear. It's a stretch, but guess it's still something that should be checked/eliminated.



.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Originally Posted by gtofreek

Good thought, but I do check this also when I check the cam for bent. This cam only had .001" runout. Most cams I see have .002"-.003" runout and they have never been a problem.

[Va68goat]

HWYSTR455,
Yes, Paul had me send another distributor gear when the distributor bushing was discovered. Since the noise is still present after it was repaired, I think it's a little safer to assume that the distributor bushing is the result of a greater problem and was not a part failure as it was described. I know it's not 100% certain but it makes sense. Though it's a rare problem, it looks like a possibility and could have been missed when the motor was sent back to Arizona. If we switch the distributor and the knocking noise is still present, then it's more likely that it was missed. I don't want to post pictures of the plugs that I took yesterday because I think it's just going to distract away from the real problem. I sent the pictures to Jeff, you and a few of the guys that have helped me. If the motor is missing and the plugs are showing lean, that will get addressed when the knocking noise is eliminated. The more diagnosing and letting that motor run without fixing the problem, the more apt that the bearings and piston rings will get damaged again. We have plenty of time to get the timing right and the idle. I think we're close!!!!

[Region Warrior]

My last post wasn't intended to mean bad fuel.
Was thinking to much fuel in 2 or more cylinders at idle.
Have you checked carb for debris?
Happened here years ago with a brand new 850 Demon carb.
Rear float suck open upon start up.
Was surprised how much metal debris was in both bowls and rear channels from factory!

[Va68goat]

Region Warrior,
This was a custom carb that was built by Jeff Koerner. I'm assuming the carb is fine. The carb was on the motor at the time it was dyno'd. Once the knocking noise is eliminated, we'll work with Jeff to get this carb dialed in.

[HWYSTR455]

Missed that previous post on the runout, and lean, yeah, my dyslexia kicked in. I didn't touch the idle mix screws after setting them to 3/4 each, I was just trying to get them even for an initial start. Being extremely lean could cause a lean knock tho. Can easily go to 1 & 1/4 turn on all.

Replace the line leaving the pump, but I'm pretty sure I saw fuel splashing in the bowls when it was running, someone asked me to look at that.

Maybe some casting flash or something at the top of the trans bell striking the plate?

Just throwing stuff out there, thinking out loud, but running out of ideas.

.

[Va68goat]

HWYSTR455,
Remember the knocking was present with the Street Avenger carburetor that was on there before I got the Jeff Koerner carburetor. The knocking has always been present and the signature has always been coming from the distributor area. The witness marks on the oil pump shaft and the damaged distributor bushing may be a clue to where the knocking noise is really coming from. We replaced the rockers, lifters, pushrods and flexplate and had the heads inspected...still the same knock!

[68 461 Bird]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

68 461 Bird,
I've thought about that and that is an option but there is not a chance in hell that I'm going walk away from the money I have sent Paul. I've been speaking with Jeff Koerner, so thats a good sign. I have been reaching out to Paul by text but he hasn't returned one. I even sent one last night explaining that we need to work this out away from the forum and that I don't think he's a bad guy. No response from him..So, when Paul chimes in and diverts the attention to everything other than himself...I won't let that happen. Fuel??? Really? It's possible that Paul made a mistake and than missed it again when he tore the motor down and I'm fine with that...lets work this out and figure the problem out. Blame it on fuel??... come on!

.

Another guy from AZ? You live in VA right? I don't get why after 2 years you are still hoping Paul is going to do something. I get you spent a lot of money with him, but at this point, you need to cut your losses and have another look inside to see where the knocking noise is coming from. Butler Performance is a days drive away, Paul Spotts is in PA and Nightmare Perforance is in CT. I just names a few Pontiac Engine builders I would use and 64speed has a guy he trusts too. I would be dying to drive that GTO by now and burning up the streets in VA .

On a positive note, there's a lot of great advice on this thread. I am hoping for the best for you!

[P@blo]

Originally Posted by 68 461 Bird

Another guy from AZ? You live in VA right? I don't get why after 2 years you are still hoping Paul is going to do something. I get you spent a lot of money with him, but at this point, you need to cut your losses and have another look inside to see where the knocking noise is coming from. Butler Performance is a days drive away, Paul Spotts is in PA and Nightmare Perforance is in CT. I just names a few Pontiac Engine builders I would use and 64speed has a guy he trusts too. I would be dying to drive that GTO by now and burning up the streets in VA .

On a positive note, there's a lot of great advice on this thread. I am hoping for the best for you!

I never can understand why people chime in with comments like this where they expect a person to process and decide like they themselves would. The OP wants resolution and either we are helping him along this path or we are are not.

Making things right is better for both parties involved actually.

[64speed]

Originally Posted by 68 461 Bird

Another guy from AZ? You live in VA right? I don't get why after 2 years you are still hoping Paul is going to do something. I get you spent a lot of money with him, but at this point, you need to cut your losses and have another look inside to see where the knocking noise is coming from. Butler Performance is a days drive away, Paul Spotts is in PA and Nightmare Perforance is in CT. I just names a few Pontiac Engine builders I would use and 64speed has a guy he trusts too. I would be dying to drive that GTO by now and burning up the streets in VA .

On a positive note, there's a lot of great advice on this thread. I am hoping for the best for you!

I agree. You have been beating your head against a wall for how long now? My engine builder fields two cars for the Southeast Gassers Association and most times they are winners. He has built two 421s for my friend that were absolute screamers and he built Caster1 461 that is amazing. Its torn up a transmission already and is working on tearing up a rearend. Wayne will NOT let you leave without a warranty and you attesting to the fact that it is good to go. With Wayne you will have to deal with him in person which is a drive but if you get it from him you will get to see and hear it run on his stand and when you get it back home and you install it in your car if it knocks then well then you got a problem somewhere else. Wayne is reasonable too. He did all my assembly work and machining for 1600 bucks and thats including ordering custom pushrods and providing all gaskets except head gaskets and all the little trinket bolts etc that everyone forgets.

[P@blo]

Originally Posted by 64speed

I agree. You have been beating your head against a wall for how long now? My engine builder fields two cars for the Southeast Gassers Association and most times they are winners. He has built two 421s for my friend that were absolute screamers and he built Caster1 461 that is amazing. Its torn up a transmission already and is working on tearing up a rearend. Wayne will NOT let you leave without a warranty and you attesting to the fact that it is good to go. With Wayne you will have to deal with him in person which is a drive but if you get it from him you will get to see and hear it run on his stand and when you get it back home and you install it in your car if it knocks then well then you got a problem somewhere else. Wayne is reasonable too. He did all my assembly work and machining for 1600 bucks and thats including ordering custom pushrods and providing all gaskets except head gaskets and all the little trinket bolts etc that everyone forgets.

Warranty on performance engines is interesting...

[Va68goat]

68 461 Bird,
Believe me, nobody is as frustrated as me...well, maybe Paul is in a close second behind me! Though Paul has pulled away from this build other than posting an occasional comment, I still think he's a great builder that is just not accustomed to problems with his builds. I'm sure a lot of people are surprised that he built a motor that has problems but they're also seeing how he is handling it. Jeff Koerner is still communicating with me so that's a good thing that I appreciate.

If Koerner Racing Engines wants to send this motor to Butlers and pay the ride and repair, I would do that in a second. I don't think that's too realistic though.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Short(ground) or eliminating spark(pull plug wire) to one cylinder at a time, if the noise goes away, you found your problem hole/s, and possibly the misfire also if that is still present(based on RPM drop).

You can do this manually at home or take it to a shop with the equipment to data log the rpm drop of each cylinder.
Known as a cylinder kill or cylinder balance test.

I believe your only after a noise at this point? Misfire/shake at idle remediated.

Ignition base timing has been set at this point , correct?

FWIW ...From the video, I hear a wrist pin knock.

Wish you were close by, I'd gladly stop by.

Keep diggin!

[64speed]

Originally Posted by P@blo

Warranty on performance engines is interesting...

Yes if you let him build it with his approved parts or agrees with the quality of the parts you provide which was SCAT in my case then if he puts it on the dyno and it blows up he will replace it. If you installed it in your car and it knocked right after he ran it in, he would fix it. If you blow it up racing, well you are on your own

[Va68goat]

STEELCITYFIREBIRD,

Diagnosing the problems that this motor has from my garage or my friends garage is not only time consuming, it's frustrating....we are the ones that are left to do the work. We have over 100 hours diagnosing problems on this motor. The only common denominator between all my friends that have helped me is that none of them have opened it up to see what is going on inside the motor. I think that is a clue as well. All of the guys that have helped me are very experienced guys that have built motors, diagnosed motors and have Pontiacs that they work on themselves.

[chiphead]

I feel really bad, since I was one of the guys that advised sending it back to the builder. I'm really shocked this noise is still there.

I would say wrist pin knock, but Paul would have caught that easily. By the time a wrist pin starts knocking like that, the piston or the rod has major issues that are easily seen. I can't see this motor surviving 4 or 5 trips to dyno with a wrist pin problem. Typically the wrist pin walks out and *kaboom*. Unless.... The original rod failure damaged the wrist pin or the pin boss in the piston. Paul should have checked the pin and piston for damage after the accident. What happens during a rod bearing failure is that the crank tries to take the rod around with it. The other end of the rod (wrist pin end) resists the twisting force until the engine stops. This can (in some cases) damage the wrist pin or the piston pin boss. I would expect the parts would have been evaluated for damage during the repair.

Still sounds like piston slap to me. If it's piston slap, you will never prove it without a complete teardown.

Does knocking noise reduce in volume or severity when motor gets hot?

Check for rattling at tranny mount or tranny x-member. Verify the engine shaking isn't banging the x-member on the car's frame or banging the exhaust against a bracket, frame or E-brake cable.

I like the idea of pulling plugs and spinning motor over with starter. Maybe you can hear banging/clanking noises easier without the exhaust noise.

Worst case, pull the engine. Put it on a run stand or dyno and run it outside of the car. If it still makes noise, then dig into it.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

I sense your frustration, and likely building anger.
I was the guy that went and diagnosed our field problems (leaks, noises, other oddities) and when our fault, I often fixed them in our warehouse, sometimes in vehicle or I pulled it. (The plus side of having a mechanic assisting running a machine shop)

Try the cylinder cutout/wire pull, many noises related to piston skirt clearance, pin and rod bearing can be isolated by this method. It only takes about 10-15 minutes maximum to complete.
When you eliminate the ignition the heaviest load on these components is greatly reduced, and usually, if any inadequacy is causing a noise, that noise can be greatly lessened, pointing to the causeusual area..

HTH

[68 461 Bird]

Originally Posted by P@blo

I never can understand

Making things right is better for both parties involved actually.

Sorry you have a hard time understanding. I was only giving advice to the OP and he is the only party I cared about. It appears others agree if these other diagnostics don't work out, its time to dig into it.