[LostHighway]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Well, in 2006 I bought my first new car ever, a 2005 leftover GTO, the car on a test drive, was not anywhere impressive as most older GTOs (OWNED a dozen over the years, from stock, to totally hot rodded). Because of the vehicle management system the LS GTOs are very linear and apply power like an electric motor does.

Now if you turn off the traction control and bring the engine up against the convertor and hammer the gas, you better be a pretty good wheelman to keep it straight. The 400 HP is there, it's just tamed down by the management systems. A tune will gain 20-50 more HP. Not to mention the tires on a 2004-2006 GTO are light years ahead of bias ply tires we had on the old GTOs. So if it seems slower, it's because of the management systems, watch the speedometer, because it's really deceiving on how fast you're really going. 0 to 100 is pretty damn fast in my GTO, because of the quiet, and better suspension, it's deceiving. The LS2 GTOs were 0-60 in 5 seconds flat in stock form, with either transmission.

To match the power I had one 76 T/A with a 455 ported cast heads, headers, and a really mild street cam (268 advertised duration) that would have been probably just about even. With about 90 more cubes, and yes a bunch more low end torque.

It's apples to oranges, but that T/A would be a real close match to my 05 GTO. GTO averages 20 MPG, T/A would get 16 when I checked it. Reworked Q Jet on a 76 cast iron manifold.

The LS engines DON'T have all the raw low end torque that a Stratostreak engine has, but there are other ways to get to the same end result. Too bad you passed on the 06 GTO, they are pretty great cars, mine is just under 140,000 miles with a water pump replacement since new.....

Agreed. I had an 05 6 speed with bolt ons and a hot cam in it. They are nice cars and probably the best available from that time period.

[1968GTO421]

A very interesting thread, almost as long as the one on Speedmaster Heads

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=835987

I like it when there is tons of good info and no name-calling, you all are a bunch of great folks to hang with---Merry Christmas!

[jerry455]

When I started building an engine 4 years ago everyone told me to build an LS. The engine is great but when I was thinking about the best times of my life and the cars they were in, I found a 455 Pontiac and that is where it started. I am hoping to have it done this spring. It has Edelbrock RPM 72 CC CNC heads, Performer RPM intake and a roller cam. I am not sure how much power it will make but it will be fun to find out. My wife has a 2013 Camaro SS with a 400 hp L99 automatic trans. It is a fun car to drive and probably more refined due to all of the electronic controls. She wants to go to the dragstrip this summer to see how fast her Camaro is and we will see how it compares to my 1976 Firebird. The GTO's from 2004-06 are impressive but a lot of us still would rather have an older one.

[Wareagle]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

Don't think a high torque Q-jet equipped Pontiac V8 needs any LS tricks.

But, opinions differ.

Yes ie. This 4 X NHRA Super Stock World Champion Pontiac Team using a 400 6X Combo + This 70 T/A Fuel Injected 455 5 spd > blew 2 LS Powered Vette's into the weeds in one day of testing - only paid 1000 $ for the balanced and blueprinted 455 short block - there are deals out there even today - 14,000,000 Pontiac V8's Were built

[pastry_chef]

Turn-key fuel injected LS are pricey.

A complete carb 427 ready to run - dyno'd 625 HP and 30 month / 50,000 mile warranty. Forged bottom end components.

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/BlueP...in,250070.html

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by jerry455

When I started building an engine 4 years ago everyone told me to build an LS. The engine is great but when I was thinking about the best times of my life and the cars they were in, I found a 455 Pontiac and that is where it started. I am hoping to have it done this spring. It has Edelbrock RPM 72 CC CNC heads, Performer RPM intake and a roller cam. I am not sure how much power it will make but it will be fun to find out. My wife has a 2013 Camaro SS with a 400 hp L99 automatic trans. It is a fun car to drive and probably more refined due to all of the electronic controls. She wants to go to the dragstrip this summer to see how fast her Camaro is and we will see how it compares to my 1976 Firebird. The GTO's from 2004-06 are impressive but a lot of us still would rather have an older one.

My 05 GTO is fair weather daily driver, I'd rather be driving that instead of a honda or a toyota. I'm not saying the new GTO is a better car at all, just different than the older ones, but being 40 years spread there should be a great many differences.

If you read my signature I only drive Pontiacs, except for my trucks. 1993 K3500 dually, no chevy engine, 6.5 TD, 1995 chevy 3500HD, no chevy engine , 6.5 TD, 1988 IH S1600 Wrecker (ex U haul truck) 7.3 IDI diesel. I'm particular about what, I own and drive.

2008 Vibe, wife's car, 2005 GTO my car, and 1999 3.1 SE GP, utility driver (pale pink ex Mary Kay car). 1984 GP project car will have a 455 in it when completed.

[Dragncar]

If you stick a LS into you old Pontiac it not a PONTIAC anymore. Its all about the "engine". The engine is the heart of the car, gives that vehicle its characteristics.
And a LS in a Pontiac is a weak @$$ lame car. Its a give up, a give in. Weak minded too.
This a a Pontiac forum guys, all about Pontiacs and is why we are all here.
If we wanted to be like everyone else we would not be into Pontiacs. There is a price to pay for it and we are willing to.
Only the cool kids are into Pontiacs.

[Formulabruce]

In '67 when the 400 was built from a 389, GM took notice of the Torque. By 1970 Chevy had the EXACT same Bore and stroke in its own SBC as a 400, albiet with steam issues.
Pontiacs Naturally have had more torque, which saved Pontiac money by not having to go with lower gear ratios like chevy did when AC was ordered.
In 1970 a Pontiac 400 had 400 FT lbs of Torque....@ 2400 RPM... OH, and did I mention its a 2 bbl?
The LS question had me doing some research a couple years ago.
The LS 6.0 is a 366 basically. The Pontiac 350 is a 355 in reality.
To get the performance similar to a LS, here is what I came up with, aside from Torque, Pontiac Already won that war.
The LS engines have improved on torque and power over the years by cheaply adding height to the plastic intake. One can just look at a 2005 vs a 2015 truck engine and see it.
The LS got Cathedral intakes in the heads, a upgrade from earlier vortec heads. WE can get that flow from Current available aftermarket Pontiac heads.
The motor has to be a roller motor, AND a special cam should be made that changes the firing order to that of an LS, so the LS electronics can be used, and injection system.
A custom plastic intake would need to be built to handle the intake duties.
THis engine would easily have plenty of power IN the DRIVING RANGE , and get excellent economy.
It would be pricey for the FIRST one, but costs could come way down if a bunch were made.
If I had the money, I would build this as proof of concept.
But, rather than build an engine that ONLY has XXX HP at 4600 RPMs where I, and 90% of others, do NOT drive, I think I could settle for the 1970 400 2 bbl with 400 ft lbs of Torque IN the driving RPM range.
Pontiac can have a reliable, economical place in the present.. My 40 over 455 round port with OD gets 17 mpg highway with a 3.42 rear. A modernized "355" Pontiac would easily get 25 mpg.
When you have a cruise night moved to your bucket list due to distance, Economy DOES Count.

[HWYSTR455]

Actually, I forgot the carb optioned LS offerings, that actually brings the price down considerably. A good comparison of that type of LS build to a classic Pontiac build would be more apples to apples.

Interesting how I see builds like that, and other FI LS performance builds, have a healthy spread of intake/exhaust durations. That makes me wonder if a 'favor' to the intake tract was part of the design due to packaging, and there could be gains seen by head work or upgrades.

Wonder what intake to exhaust ratios are on different LS heads are?


.

[OZZIEVILLE 67 2 door]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

If you stick a LS into you old Pontiac it not a PONTIAC anymore. Its all about the "engine". The engine is the heart of the car, gives that vehicle its characteristics.

And a LS in a Pontiac is a weak @$$ lame car. Its a give up, a give in. Weak minded too.

This a a Pontiac forum guys, all about Pontiacs and is why we are all here.

If we wanted to be like everyone else we would not be into Pontiacs. There is a price to pay for it and we are willing to.

Only the cool kids are into Pontiacs.

I vote this as "post of the year ",
Well said Dragoncar

JL

Sent from my SM-T585 using Tapatalk

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

If you stick a LS into you old Pontiac it not a PONTIAC anymore. Its all about the "engine". The engine is the heart of the car, gives that vehicle its characteristics.
And a LS in a Pontiac is a weak @$$ lame car. Its a give up, a give in. Weak minded too.
This a a Pontiac forum guys, all about Pontiacs and is why we are all here.
If we wanted to be like everyone else we would not be into Pontiacs. There is a price to pay for it and we are willing to.
Only the cool kids are into Pontiacs.

So if a dude gets a heart transplant do we start calling him by a different name? I mean Bob's heart is gone so he cant possibly be Bob anymore right? Bob used to be cool, but he is lame now because he has a new heart lol.

All joking aside, I get that this is a Pontiac forum, but motor swaps have been a thing since the beginning of automotive time. Ive seen really cool projects of other brands with Pontiacs swapped into them, and Ive seen really cool Pontiacs with heart transplants. I don't know if its a function of the times, where it seems like everything is polarized like politics, but I try to keep an open mind. There is too much cool go fast stuff out there to get pigeonholed.

[P@blo]

Why is it always brought up that Pontiac are high torque engines? Compared to what? Sorry gents the Pontiac powerplant is not anything special and is an ICE that was designed 50 years ago...

My neighbour just swapped to a 6.0 liter LS. $3500 all in and a custom wiring harness made for his vehicle. These guys all run low 11 second cars and none of them are looking for vintage Pontiac high torque engines. Why would that be do you think?

An original car is one thing but if you want to go fast and use modern technology the LS platform is a no brainer. This coming from a guy who has a Pontiac parts stash too but I'm not going to ignore facts for emotion.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by P@blo

This coming from a guy who has a Pontiac parts stash too but I'm not going to ignore facts for emotion.

I can raise my hand for that as well. I obviously paid the Pontiac tax on my car, and I had nothing. So I got taxed but good. That said, there is a lot of, "I don't like this so Im going to spread mis-information about it" That goes on with some of the old car crowd when it comes to other engines.

To be fair Im sure that has been going on forever.

I kinda fall in the middle of the age spectrum here, mid 30s. Im the Gen X'er if you will in between the Boomers and Millennials of the car hobby. For the most part, I probably fall inline with the old guard. But there is one line where I really am much more attracted to the younger "Just send it!" way of thinking.


The "Don't get it right, just get it running!" mentality. Im all in on that. How many times have we seen, or hell maybe were the person who was building a car in their garage that took 20 years. Or even eventually gave up and had to sell. This is the first cousin to the guy with the car under a tarp that he wont sell because he is going to fix it one day.


I mean if you got a Trans am with a blown 400, you want the KRE heads, and forged assembly. You just don't have the money for it. Who knows when you will. Life gets in the way and all that. But there will probably be a tax return time or something when you have $1500, a case of beer and two friends. You can go grab that $500 5.3 and 4l60 of craigslist and bang it in. Be doing burnout in no time. The 400 on the stand isn't going anywhere, when life allows you can still build it. Don't hate on someone for getting an old car back on the road. They are still buying speed parts and repro parts from the same companies you use, so every car on the road benefits all of us.

[avman]

I only read a couple of posts, but I think that Pontiac cars should use Pontiac engines, although I give latitude to go up in cubic inches.
If I see a LS transplant at an open hood car show, I walk on by.

[Interceptor]

Originally Posted by avman

If I see a LS transplant at an open hood car show, I walk on by.

That was me only a short time ago. Now I no longer care what other people are doing, I'm just building the car the way I want. After trying a couple of carbs and then Sniper EFI on my Pontiac I have given up; 2 Snipers failed and left me on the side of the road. From the 2 failures the cylinder walls washed and failed the engine. Never again. I miss the 11-second/25mpg power EASILY OBTAINED from my Buick Grand National and am going Turbo LS. I expect to be in for around $10k including the 4L80e transmission and full GM engine controls, which is probably what a reliable Pontiac stroker would have cost. Don't care. I'll be able to drive it across the country with good gas mileage and 600rwhp on tap and get it fixed anywhere but probably won't need to. Try that with a Pontiac stroker.

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by P@blo

Why is it always brought up that Pontiac are high torque engines? Compared to what?

You nailed it.

Perhaps higher torque compared to an old school BBC 396 with oversized rectangular ports that are even too large for a 6500 RPM 454.. LOL

Wareagle..
Do you know anything about the people and experience behind Peter Biondo's car? LOL
Do you link if John Langer went Chevy that he would not perform well?
Those people are highly exceptional, and succeed DESPITE the Pontiac limitations!
Saying the P brand does it for them is BS and an INSULT to them.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Interceptor

That was me only a short time ago. Now I no longer care what other people are doing, I'm just building the car the way I want. After trying a couple of carbs and then Sniper EFI on my Pontiac I have given up; 2 Snipers failed and left me on the side of the road. From the 2 failures the cylinder walls washed and failed the engine. Never again. I miss the 11-second/25mpg power EASILY OBTAINED from my Buick Grand National and am going Turbo LS. I expect to be in for around $10k including the 4L80e transmission and full GM engine controls, which is probably what a reliable Pontiac stroker would have cost. Don't care. I'll be able to drive it across the country with good gas mileage and 600rwhp on tap and get it fixed anywhere but probably won't need to. Try that with a Pontiac stroker.

You can get parts to fix a Pontiac V8 no problem. A little skill and experience with a carburetor and a distributor makes a big difference in having a nice-driving classic of any brand. Being able to adjust a choke, set the timing, that sort of thing puts you in a position to have nice all-weather driver with a classic engine.

When you start talking boost and 600 rwhp, I don't know what is involved in either an LS or a Pontiac, so you may be onto something there. But it sounds like your Sniper your real problem, not your Pontiac engine.

As for fuel economy, you might get fairly close with a Pontiac if you use an overdrive and either FI or a Quadrajet. But at the end of the day, your average hobbyist should not expect to compete with OEM engineering. The Pontiac V8 was initially designed over a half century again. You can (1) run a Pontiac V8 while recognizing its limitations, (2) run a Pontiac V8 and go to the ends of the earth trying to get every last bit of power and fuel economy, or (3) run something else.

I chose (1) myself, my car starts right up in any weather and will rip your face off at full throttle. I'd drive it anywhere, but i wouldn't do any better than 12 mpg. It's loud, no overdrive. That's how muscle cars were! In a weird way I kind of like the fact that is not as quiet or comfortable as a new car, hard to explain.

[LostHighway]

Originally Posted by glhs#116

Ponyakr, I think he is talking about building a Pontiac V8 using tricks from the LS engineering playbook..

Sam

How are you goint to put VVT on a Pontiac 400 etc.?

[i82much]

Originally Posted by LostHighway

How are you goint to put VVT on a Pontiac 400 etc.?

Rhoads lifters

[ta man]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

If you stick a LS into you old Pontiac it not a PONTIAC anymore. Its all about the "engine". The engine is the heart of the car, gives that vehicle its characteristics.
And a LS in a Pontiac is a weak @$$ lame car. Its a give up, a give in. Weak minded too.
This a a Pontiac forum guys, all about Pontiacs and is why we are all here.
If we wanted to be like everyone else we would not be into Pontiacs. There is a price to pay for it and we are willing to.
Only the cool kids are into Pontiacs.

Well said..if this forum turns into a bunch of LS nuthuggers and builds I'm gone.
I can appreciate the discussion..but anyone even thinking about a LS swap into their classic Pontiac should find a different forum.