[blueghoast]

So how ya keep them from spining?

GT.

[krisr]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

The valvetrain in the LS engines are much lighter than Pontiacs, so they work well with a little less spring pressures on aftermarket camshafts than what you would typically see today, especially in engines with heavier valvetrains.

When I had my LS3 apart to do a valve spring and camshaft swap, I weighed the intake valves to compare against my 2.11 stainless valves.

Stock LS3 - 88 grams
F6189 (machined down to 2.11 w/30deg seat)- 147 grams

And that's JUST the valve!

[Murf]

Originally Posted by krisr

When I had my LS3 apart to do a valve spring and camshaft swap, I weighed the intake valves to compare against my 2.11 stainless valves.



Stock LS3 - 88 grams

F6189 (machined down to 2.11 w/30deg seat)- 147 grams



And that's JUST the valve!

Good info krisr! I have a couple questions for anyone that cares to reply.

1. Does the weight of the complete valvetrain affect the spring pressure required? I assume it does.

2. Would the use of beehive springs help fight the possibility of overloading the lifters & are there compatible beehives available?

3. Are there any relatively light 2.11 intake valves available at a somewhat reasonable price?

Thanks
Murf



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[slowbird]

Originally Posted by krisr

When I had my LS3 apart to do a valve spring and camshaft swap, I weighed the intake valves to compare against my 2.11 stainless valves.

Stock LS3 - 88 grams
F6189 (machined down to 2.11 w/30deg seat)- 147 grams

And that's JUST the valve!

I don't know the ls stuff that well, do they run titanium valves? What size valves are they?

[JLMounce]

I’m no LS expert but my understanding is that they don’t really start to look at lifter upgrades until things start getting pretty wild.

The sloppy stage 2 type cams usually get something like a pac1219 installed with them. Pretty basic 5.3 or 6.0 cam swap there and they run about 150-160 on the seat and about 350 open.

Those are pressures that are fairly similar to the hyd roller stuff being run in Pontiac engines, and the LS stuff doesn’t seem to have a high failure rate on their parts at this level.

[JC455]

If you look at my previous video, it was referencing Jim Lehart's original plan of using the Ford roller 302 parts, but modified.
There are a few posts and video links here from other users about his setup;
There's a plate system being brought to market;
I'm working on my own setup for retaining them too, but it's taking more time than I anticipated.

[GoatZillaRacing]

One area you don't hear about with the drop in Hyd Roller Lifters is the lifter body going below the oil feed hole in the lifter bore. The measurement is 2.000 from the base circle of the roller cam to the top of the oil feed hole in the lifter bore. This measurement is based on a 1.080 base circle cam.
Using our big .400 lobe lift cams, the Gaterman 1012 lifters still have a little room to spare as pictured in the first two pictures. The Sealed Power HT2148 lifters will expose the oil hole and spurt oil when the cam is on the base circle.
Our .377 lobe lift cams have a 1.135 base circle and work fine with either lifter.
Test your setup prior to firing it up by installing the cam and just placing the lifters in the bores. Keep the valley pan off and use your oil priming tool to prelube the engine and you'll see if it's losing oil. Some oil seepage around the lifter body is to be expected but if it looks like the Clampet's striking oil on the Beverly Hillbillies, you're asking for a rod or main bearing failure.
The key is to use a Hyd Roller cam with a 1.135 base circle or larger on a HT2148 lifter. Let me be clear, it will run regardless but at continued high RPM it will pump the oil to the top and bearings are going to suffer.
For anyone who has built an engine with these lifters and a large hyd roller cam, IF you don't know your cams base circle dimension, call your cam manufacturer and find out.
The hobby can't afford any more Pontiac blocks being destroyed.
Pics on our page at facebook.com/pontiacspeedshop

[Stuart]

If some of the posts are confusing or seem repetitive, there were multiple threads on this same topic that have been merged together.

[Murf]

Hey Larry, which part of the build is the inexpensive part?

You wouldn’t have an older style 857 lifter you’d sell, would ya?

Murf


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[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Murf

Hey Larry, which part of the build is the inexpensive part?

You wouldn’t have an older style 857 lifter you’d sell, would ya?

Murf


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LOL you are exactly right about that Murf

There is one set here we are holding on to that dad ran in his old engine for about 4 years (that was almost 20 years ago, lol) they were a whisper quiet set in his engine. I was told, I think by Tom, when I put up a picture of them that they are actually a set of Johnsons that Comp was using and reboxing back in that time frame. I always thought they were Morels. Anyway, unfortunately nothing to sell.
Maybe you told me and I forgot, did you have one go south?

[1969GPSJ]

As far as lifters and oiling bands and oiling holes, Crawdaddy Customs did a video looking at a variety of GM .842 replacement lifters -> Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/@CrawdaddyCustoms/videos

[Murf]

Yeah, I’ve got a bad one. I was hoping to find someone who had a pair they could part with. Trying to save some money on the wife’s car, so I can spend it on me!


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[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Murf

Yeah, I’ve got a bad one. I was hoping to find someone who had a pair they could part with. Trying to save some money on the wife’s car, so I can spend it on me!


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LOL

[tom s]

FJ,did you send me a pair?Need to check when I get home from Mammoth.Tom

[Shwoody]

Does anyone have any updates about all this? RH68 had an appealing looking solution, wondering if any of those were ever put into production? The plate from Goatzilla looked simple and easy but there were some issues discussed in another thread.

I'm thinking of trying the Gaterman lifters with the Ford spider and dogbones unless there have been any new discoveries? Butler has a "068" roller cam I want to run. They offer a kit with link-bar Morels that have a revised oil band location as of 2021 but it'd be nice to save a little $ and theoretically increase reliability.

[vtxman]

I was wondering the same thing. After reading everything I could find, I ordered the Gaterman lifters and the Goatzilla plate. (just last week) I am hopeful the plate will work even if I have to make some modifications to it. If that doesn't work, plan B is to order the Ford spider and dog bones. But I am determined to use the LS style lifters in my 400 stroker build.

I will post my progress, but this is a slow build.

I would also be interested in the success or failure of other attempts to use the plate or dog bones. Maybe someone has even found a better solution.

[NeighborsComplaint]

How a low-priced, aftermarket OEM replacement lifter would be less problematic than a high-priced aftermarket retrofit lifter still doesn't compute.

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

How a low-priced, aftermarket OEM replacement lifter would be less problematic than a high-priced aftermarket retrofit lifter still doesn't compute.

The OEM has to warranty the engine for 50K miles at any one of 30,000 service departments, and all the customer needs is to have a VIN number and an odometer reading to prove the warranty is valid. The aftermarket "retrofit" lifter is warrantied on an individual, customer-specific basis. (i.e., If they buy a lot from us, we'll warranty a set now and then. If this is a D-I-Y, he'd better have a receipt and be within 1--3--6--12 months on a vehicle that probably isn't driven 10,000 miles/year, and maybe less than 1000?)

Aftermarket parts are often bottom-feeder junk with little or no QA, and potentially designed by amateurs/hobbyists/enthusiasts, and then invisibly re-designed by the actual offshore manufacturer by using inferior steel, improper heat-treat, imprecise machining, etc. OEM parts may be imported from the same hell-hole, but they're studied, inspected, verified, statistically-analyzed. They're produced in sufficient quantity to get "volume pricing".

There's exceptions. For example, GM built the Citation; and advertised how many millions of dollars went into the development and testing to assure a high-quality, dependable, economical vehicle. It was thoroughly engineered: Apparently, they spend one million dollars to design the car, and then spent four more million to carve all the quality and production costs back out of every single system. OTOH, Moog built a reputation on it's "Problem-Solver" line of parts that (used to) be a trustworthy upgrade from OEM--OEM with the mistakes and cost-cutting removed.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

The OEM has to warranty the engine for 50K miles at any one of 30,000 service departments, and all the customer needs is to have a VIN number and an odometer reading to prove the warranty is valid. The aftermarket "retrofit" lifter is warrantied on an individual, customer-specific basis. (i.e., If they buy a lot from us, we'll warranty a set now and then. If this is a D-I-Y, he'd better have a receipt and be within 1--3--6--12 months on a vehicle that probably isn't driven 10,000 miles/year, and maybe less than 1000?)

Aftermarket parts are often bottom-feeder junk with little or no QA, and potentially designed by amateurs/hobbyists/enthusiasts, and then invisibly re-designed by the actual offshore manufacturer by using inferior steel, improper heat-treat, imprecise machining, etc. OEM parts may be imported from the same hell-hole, but they're studied, inspected, verified, statistically-analyzed. They're produced in sufficient quantity to get "volume pricing".

There's exceptions. For example, GM built the Citation; and advertised how many millions of dollars went into the development and testing to assure a high-quality, dependable, economical vehicle. It was thoroughly engineered: Apparently, they spend one million dollars to design the car, and then spent four more million to carve all the quality and production costs back out of every single system. OTOH, Moog built a reputation on it's "Problem-Solver" line of parts that (used to) be a trustworthy upgrade from OEM--OEM with the mistakes and cost-cutting removed.

The lifters being proposed for use with the Injun plates are not OEM. They are aftermarket, off the shelf lifters OEM style replacements. Chances are they are also made in China.

[Franked]

I'm building a 400 (+.060) block, with a 4.250 stroker crank, making a 468.
I bought a partially assembled short block, cam and crank were installed.
pistons, rods, rings were still in boxes. block was already bored, but not decked, and I am getting new cam bearings installed, my machine shop guy wants to re-balance the rotating assembly with the balancer and flywheel. and he is going to fit the rings (Mahle, forged flat tops, 9.7 to 10.3:1 depending on how much we deck the block, and the thickness of the head gaskets.
I ordered Edelbrock D port heads, CnC'd to 310 CFM from Kauffman, i expect those late may or early june.
the cam that came with this stroker kit is a Butler Grind Comp cams BP8022SP
.510/.520 lift 281/287 duration. 112* lobe separation.
When i put a couple used LS2 lifters in it (from an 05 GTO) and rotated the cam, the dogbones lifted about .030, and it looked like the full bottom of the lifter hit the lobe a little lifting the wheel from the lobe.
I have some 2148s showing up to try, but I wanted something factory reliable and lightweight instead of the heavy link-bar type lifters.
I do NOT plan on taking this engine past 55-5600, but I want a smooth operating valve train.
Frank