[opeliac]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

As you know, the main bearing availability for Pontiac engines isn't great. We ran King and FM race bearings, just the regular stuff. Yes, we did have some cap walk, and yes I believe having cross bolted main caps would have helped. How could it not help? Clamping the main caps within the block structure makes the entire bottom end more rigid and able to withstand higher loads. ALL the really high HP racing engines have them. I guess the question is at what HP point do you really need them in a Pontiac engine. I would submit that the cast IA solid aluminum block needs them somewhere north of 3100-3300 HP. Would it have benefited us at the 3K HP we were making? Yes in my opinion. I did several things to help "crutch" what we had to work with. Bill Miller worked with me and shared several ideas I incorporated into our engine. You may know he ran BBC based engines in NHRA Top Fuel for several years. We used his special "peanut butter" lube on the studs and nuts and a different spray lube on the ends that went in the block. We torqued the main studs on to steel ball bearings dropped into the bolt holes. I cut the main caps which were steel, with an extra coarse dress on the stone, alternating the direction each cap faced in the grinder. This way the cap would lightly embed into the aluminum when clamped in addition to the register and the pins. All these little "tricks or band aids" did help. Made a noticeable difference. But there was still a little cap walk. Nothing that hurt the bearings, but it was there. That's all I can add from my experience. I love my Pontiacs, but a skirted block would be my choice.

How different do you think it would be if you were trying to make the same HP with a turbocharged alcohol combo?

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by opeliac

What are the big advantage/disadvantage between the new Butler/BES pro-port heads, and Tigers?

Cost. Finished head blessed by Tony vs some cubed Tiger with no chamber and a port nowhere finished. I bet it cost a LOT of money by the time a highly skilled CNC operator is knee high in a pile of aluminum chips.
If you could get some of the big time Pontiac NA guys to give up how much money they have in their top ends, well, you could buy a 1200HP Schmidt BBC with 1200+HP and a one year guarantee with the money spent.
And you get Tony on your side which you could learn a lot from.
80K Pontiac engines are a thing and you have to love Pontiacs more than money to do it.

[Dragncar]

Jeff Kaufman told me himself that their engines had cap walk/fretting past 2000HP. One reason its hard to believe they did not get rid of the "waving in the wind" thing.

[opeliac]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Cost. Finished head blessed by Tony vs some cubed Tiger with no chamber and a port nowhere finished. I bet it cost a LOT of money by the time a highly skilled CNC operator is knee high in a pile of aluminum chips.
If you could get some of the big time Pontiac NA guys to give up how much money they have in their top ends, well, you could buy a 1200HP Schmidt BBC with 1200+HP and a one year guarantee with the money spent.
And you get Tony on your side which you could learn a lot from.
80K Pontiac engines are a thing and you have to love Pontiacs more than money to do it.

I'm not completely sold on that 80K number

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Lol George

I think it's cool to see Stafford in the Super Bowl. I wish he would've gotten it done with the Lions. Although I doubt I'm watching the game anyways.

Stanford had 2 years with lions that he could have went far and basically he messed it up. I like Stafford but he left so I don’t care about what he does. It’s like in the 60’s and 70’s If a certain driver/car went to a hemi or Chevy engine I didn’t root for them anymore. I was a Ford guy back then……I grew up and went to the good guys! LOL!


GTO George

[Elarson]

If we were to try to top what we did and had the funds to make billet blocks, my 2 significant improvements over the Stratostreak block design would be skirted cross-bolted mains and dramatically bigger main oil passages. Otherwise it's a pretty solid design.

FWIW,
Eric

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Cost. Finished head blessed by Tony vs some cubed Tiger with no chamber and a port nowhere finished. I bet it cost a LOT of money by the time a highly skilled CNC operator is knee high in a pile of aluminum chips.
If you could get some of the big time Pontiac NA guys to give up how much money they have in their top ends, well, you could buy a 1200HP Schmidt BBC with 1200+HP and a one year guarantee with the money spent.
And you get Tony on your side which you could learn a lot from.
80K Pontiac engines are a thing and you have to love Pontiacs more than money to do it.

You need to work on posting accurate info.
Cost is exactly the same (lots of $$$)! Both heads begin at same point. BES has cnc program for both heads. Both take same time to port/prepare. Only cost difference would be initial bare casting cost and i bet that's probably a wash.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Scott Roberts

Don't disappear on me man.. let's talk about this...
So tell me, what did they sue me for, how much and where?

Nah Scott. It was a public thing. About the biggest soap opera the Pontiac community has been through.
Long time ago and I am not going to let you try and pick me apart. If folks want to go back and look they can.
Its not like I do not agree with much of what you are saying on this thread, I do.
You used to be pretty cool to me here. Not so much anymore.
I am very aware of things KRE has done like not letting top head porters get their products. It would have been to their benefit to do so.
But we need them and they are real Pontiac people, in their DNA so to speak. Make more racing parts than anyone. If they did not exist about HALF the Pontiac parts are gone.
Jeff has been good to me and went out of his way to find me parts. OK in my book.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by slowbird

You need to work on posting accurate info.
Cost is exactly the same (lots of $$$)! Both heads begin at same point. BES has cnc program for both heads. Both take same time to port/prepare. Only cost difference would be initial bare casting cost and i bet that's probably a wash.

10,500$ is cheap for what you get from BES. Winner,winner chicken dinner.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

10,500$ is cheap for what you get from BES. Winner,winner chicken dinner.

Ok??
Not sure how that changes the fact there is no cost difference between PP and Tiger heads

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Lol George

I think it's cool to see Stafford in the Super Bowl. I wish he would've gotten it done with the Lions. Although I doubt I'm watching the game anyways.

Big Rams fan here and your guy Stafford is a good one. He had a bad run of throwing ints on that 3 game losing streak.
Looks like it is over and the Rams have a great shot of winning it all tomorrow.
I can not see Aaron Donald letting this one get away. Bet Joe B. gets the you know what beat out of him Sunday.
At first i was not happy with the Goff/Stafford trade at all. I am now.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Ok??
Not sure how that changes the fact there is no cost difference between PP and Tiger heads

You should have waited for Tony. PP ???

[opeliac]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

You should have waited for Tony. PP ???

Pro Port...

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

You should have waited for Tony. PP ???

Why???

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Cost. Finished head blessed by Tony vs some cubed Tiger with no chamber and a port nowhere finished. I bet it cost a LOT of money by the time a highly skilled CNC operator is knee high in a pile of aluminum chips.
If you could get some of the big time Pontiac NA guys to give up how much money they have in their top ends, well, you could buy a 1200HP Schmidt BBC with 1200+HP and a one year guarantee with the money spent.
And you get Tony on your side which you could learn a lot from.
80K Pontiac engines are a thing and you have to love Pontiacs more than money to do it.

Please explain how that differs from an "E" Pro Port?

Stan

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Scott Roberts

I wish u nothing but the best in ur build.. that's the easy part.. once u hit the track.... that's when you need to be smart..
Again, wish u the best, I'm far the smartest here but I would be glad to help u out If can.
If u have Travis Q on ur side, ur golden..

Travis gave up on Pontiac Tuning and other tuning and has had a job as a NASA Engineer on the Booster Rockets side
of the Space Game working in Huntsville Alabama. So Travis might not have time to fit him into his work schedule.

As far as cap fretting goes, there was cap fretting on the 862 HP 2-bolt main, Luhn engine that ran at only 5300 rpm.
You don't have to be making 2000 hp to get it. That says that the main caps are "waving in the wind" which was
posted 10 years ago. Only way to help that is the Skirted Blocks.

Just saying, and saying, and saying. 10 years worth. "Engineers do stuff for reasons"

Tom V.

[opeliac]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Travis gave up on Pontiac Tuning and other tuning and has had a job as a NASA Engineer on the Booster Rockets side
of the Space Game working in Huntsville Alabama. So Travis might not have time to fit him into his work schedule.

As far as cap fretting goes, there was cap fretting on the 862 HP 2-bolt main, Luhn engine that ran at only 5300 rpm.
You don't have to be making 2000 hp to get it. That says that the main caps are "waving in the wind" which was
posted 10 years ago. Only way to help that is the Skirted Blocks.

Just saying, and saying, and saying. 10 years worth. "Engineers do stuff for reasons"

Tom V.

Travis is not “hands on” on my build. He has been sharing valuable advise for years. I am grateful for everything he has told me so far.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by opeliac

If you were killing bearings at 2000hp, it wasn’t the blocks fault. I plan to make that much with my 76mms, and I have no concerns about my bearings. Now, when I put the 91mms on it, maybe I’ll run into a problem. But I don’t expect that. I’ve talked with Travis for a long time on this combo, and bearing issues have never been a concern.

But hell, maybe I’m just over my head.

Not big on second hand info, but Big Chief had a huge bearing issue that was solved by Reher Morrison, not the folks you are talking with.

Usually, all things look great on the drawing board but sometimes don't go as planned once you leave the class room.

One will also find "issues" racing a quarter mile compared to an eighth. That last 660 ft can expose problems the eighth mile guy will never see.

[opeliac]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Not big on second hand info, but Big Chief had a huge bearing issue that was solved by Reher Morrison, not the folks you are talking with.

Usually, all things look great on the drawing board but sometimes don't go as planned once you leave the class room.

One will also find "issues" racing a quarter mile compared to an eighth. That last 660 ft can expose problems the eighth mile guy will never see.

I know exactly who solved Chief's issue...That doesnt change anything in my opinion...Its just one more thing learned along the way.

I'll share a perfect statement that I was told by a doctor while trying to save my wife...He said "nobody knows everything about anything"...That stuck with me ever since that day in 2002...

As for the 1/4 mile part of it..."IF" I was trying to go faster than any other Pontiac has gone, that would be one thing...My goals arent even to be in the top 5, so i think i'll be in good shape...

[PunchT37]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Travis gave up on Pontiac Tuning and other tuning and has had a job as a NASA Engineer on the Booster Rockets side
of the Space Game working in Huntsville Alabama. So Travis might not have time to fit him into his work schedule.

As far as cap fretting goes, there was cap fretting on the 862 HP 2-bolt main, Luhn engine that ran at only 5300 rpm.
You don't have to be making 2000 hp to get it. That says that the main caps are "waving in the wind" which was
posted 10 years ago. Only way to help that is the Skirted Blocks.

Just saying, and saying, and saying. 10 years worth. "Engineers do stuff for reasons"

Tom V.

And, not just a skirted block, a cross bolted one. Big block mopars have a cap walk issues. They have a skirted block BUT, not cross bolted.

Hemi would be the exception.