[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 400 Lemans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/18600481862...Bk9SR_rtjfG9Yg Looks like a nice short block. Good price on all of that stuff. Trip to Ca. to get it through.

I looked at the Dist. area

"L278" could mean Dec.-27-68 cast date for the Block? The # 9790071 is Block 400 ci?

[400 Lemans]

https://butlerperformance.com/n-1349...formation.html

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

I looked at the Dist. area

"L278" could mean Dec.-27-68 cast date for the Block? The # 9790071 is Block 400 ci?

Yeah 68, 400 block.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

I told the Shop owner, who grew up in his father's shop and now is 57 years old to Magnaflux the Heads first. The first thing he asked me is, "was there any oil in the water and I replied no".

I asked him to clean, inspect, replace any defective parts and do a Valve job as it was done in the day.

Told him to Shim under the Valve springs for even Spring pressure.

Replace all Exhaust Valve seats.

I will perform the Pontiac cooling mod. myself, once I get the Gaskets from Butlers and I find out whether or not I need to plug the Block or the Heads for Shure, I am almost convinced it will be the Block, because that is where the Factory did it. The 421 mod. consists of drilling the hole, using the gasket as a templet, that the 421 ci motor used, in both the Head and the Block between the center Exhaust Valve/cylinders.

You said: "there are a few Pontiac specific details that can be overlooked".

Mikes Reply: Did I miss anything, because I must call him back on Monday for his analysis.

The pontiac specifics are more about the short block assembly, or little things like the rear oil galley plug thats often forgotten, or other little things like how to install the rear main seal or pan gaskets to avoid leaks, etc etc. the head rebuild should be pretty straight forward.

With all the cooling issues & mods Ive read about on this car... i think the best thing you can do is use an aluminum radiator, a factory rad should be able to keep the car cool since these cars ran OK when they were new in florida or other hot states, as mentioned overheating is often related to the tune of the engine, an aluminum radiator can be a band aid to fix those problems & eliminate the need for all the other mods.

On the ebay motor, I would pass on that unless you know how it was built with legitimate paper work, looks can be deceiving, it could have nice parts but been assembled by an amateur in a back alley or driveway... plus being its in california & you are in florida, how to you plan to get it? Seller doesnt offer shipping.

As mentioned by a few others, you need to focus on one thing at a time, if the engine runs ok as is & you think the heads need rebuilt then do that & see what happens... but since you are this far along its probably best to do like cliff said & just pull the engine to have it gone through to fix the piston orientation or do a fresh rebuild... or sell it & buy a local short block that will work with your heads if you plan to keep them.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 78w72

The Pontiac specifics are more about the short block assembly, or little things like the rear oil galley plug that's often forgotten, or other little things like how to install the rear main seal or pan gaskets to avoid leaks, etc. etc. Then the head rebuild should be pretty straight forward.

With all the cooling issues & mods I've read about on this car... I think the best thing you can do is use an aluminum radiator, a factory rad should be able to keep the car cool since these cars ran OK when they were new in Florida or other hot states, as mentioned overheating is often related to the tune of the engine, an aluminum radiator can be a band aid to fix those problems & eliminate the need for all the other mods.

On the eBay motor, I would pass on that unless you know how it was built with legitimate paper work, looks can be deceiving, it could have nice parts but been assembled by an amateur in a back alley or driveway... plus being it's in California & you are in Florida, how to you plan to get it? The seller doesn't offer shipping.

As mentioned by a few others, you need to focus on one thing at a time, if the engine runs ok as is & you think the heads need rebuilt then do that & see what happens... but since you are this far along its probably best to do like cliff said & just pull the engine to have it gone through to fix the piston orientation or do a fresh rebuild... or sell it & buy a local short block that will work with your heads if you plan to keep them.

Here is what I am thinking, first see what problems are in the Heads that possibly caused the noise. If nothing, then I put her back together and see if there is a change for the better. All else that I can/should do if there is a noise problem after that is put the $3,500, I would have spent, back into my own motor, using local machine shops for the Crank and Piston installation, as I have done in the past. Face it they have the equipment to do the job Correctly. I will look for a different mechanic than the one rebuilding my Heads, in the past I used Bennit Auto Machine shop. I buy the parts and bring them into the shop and let them tell me what else they find that needs replacing.

Years ago, I built a 327 ci Chevy this way and it was so good that it was stolen afterward. I had the Heads Ported and the intake and Heads runners were and valves were opened for better flow by a mechanic practicing the art. Today I don't know anybody that will do it for free, so I will just Port match the Intake to Heads at that time. I just want to see if the Heads being rebuilt, the crossover gaskets plugged, as before, the 041 Cam dialed in on the degree wheel, cooling system mod. installed and all new gaskets make the noise disappear. I would like the side pipes they use on Corvettes to finish the Exhaust after that. If I fail, I have been pricing other options out while still considering rebuilding the motor from the bottom up.

My roommate is outside prepping all the parts for paint for the reinstallation of this motor. We are detailing the Engine compartment as we go along, keeping this vehicle looking new as we go. Since we built our own wiring harness as we rebuilt the Trans. we were going over the Electricle wiring from the Trunk, cab and Engine Compartment using Loom that appears to be period correct. We bought this special kit from Jeg's. I believe the material looks like cloth fabric and coupled with professional solder connections and safely directing the wire away from heat and finally using heat shrink were ever necessary, along the way. Forget about factory connections on this machine, who needs loose connections that can get wet and corrode in time and the plastic gets brittle.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

I must ask " How does the Gear vendors, that is installed in my Vehicle, offset things, help/hurt etc"...?

I also want to say that the Vehicle came with the # 866 Cam, I think that is the # and it is the 1956 Tri-power one that I loved. Going to this 041 Cam is new, for when I put it in this Vehicle, shortly after I destroyed the Trans. I have yet to get used to this 041 Cam yet. With the passing gear and downshift system now working, the passing systems working again, seems to make this new Cam more enjoyable. It is not bad; I will let you know after I put the motor together and test and tune for a while.

The "Gear Vendors" is an overdrive made to reduce the overall drive ratio from 1:1 to 1:0.78, a 22% reduction in your final drive ratio. This reduces your engine's cruise RPM same as reducing your rear axle by 22% (from 4.11:1 to 3.20 for example). To the best of my knowledge, its intended used is as a final drive overdrive, not a high-low gear-splitter like you might find in a semi-tractor, though I guess you could use it that way to turn a wide-ratio 4-speed transmission into an eight speed. I don't see how you would gain anything switching the overdrive on and off after every gear change to gain the additional ratios.

Sorry for the detour, go rebuild your motor.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

The "Gear Vendors" is an overdrive made to reduce the overall drive ratio from 1:1 to 1:0.78, a 22% reduction in your final drive ratio. This reduces your engine's cruise RPM same as reducing your rear axle by 22% (from 4.11:1 to 3.20 for example). To the best of my knowledge, its intended used is as a final drive overdrive, not a high-low gear-splitter like you might find in a semi-tractor, though I guess you could use it that way to turn a wide-ratio 4-speed transmission into an eight speed. I don't see how you would gain anything switching the overdrive on and off after every gear change to gain the additional ratios.

Sorry for the detour, go rebuild your motor.

I just emailed Butler, for the Gaskets, to close the beast. I am waiting to hear from the head shop, yet.

My research through the nite brought me to this conundrum, what if: The noise issue is not solved, so I challenge the forum to a dual in finding out what the noise was and could it be from wave action? And we are not in Cal., at least I am not...

Wave action Engine simulation- Dynomation 5th # 181810 sold by Comp. Cams by the way is one of those computer simulations that provides information after you input the needed data. I don't have one of these programs, do you? I challenge you to find out if the 428 ci motor will support the 041 cam as well as the say 400 and 455 Pontiac Blocks. Given: Mikes 428 ci HO has the "041" Cam in it, Plus the Tri-power Induction and he wants to know if it is causing the noise issue that was experienced on 2 occasions upon recent testing and tuning. Let's compare a 1967 Pontiac 428 with a quadrajet, as per the factory installed with the 066, 067, 068 Cams in 1967.

I have read on this forum that the 400 ci and 455 use the 041 cam in certain ways but the 428 ci motor is never compared in those figures, so let's test the scenario on the computer dyno. programs to see if there is an unknown issue with this combo. of parts installed in this car. All I get is no it can't be that or whatever, we have the time to plug in some numbers, maybe we might learn something, I am stumped and I don't like when I can't figure out why, I have jumped over every obstacle and Hurdle in my way and this noise evades me.

I am going to rebuild this motor with the Exhaust crossovers blocked off with the remanufactured Heads and I am Incorporating the Infomas Pontiac mod-mobile too. That is, if it works, I may never know why. That is why we need to get together and crunch the numbers, aren't you guys even interested in a 428 exploration we will call it. Mike's out of his mind with this saga.

I gotta catch my breath here, the gear Vendors, in this Vehicle is mainly used to go into overdrive and lower the rpms some 500 rpm's I believe, like going into 4th gear, I love it and I will never part with it. Once in a while when I hit I-95 North I stop and put it in manual mode , take off and the controller will shift out of the first half of first and when it does I wind it out and shift at 5000 rpm and press the button as I move the selector lever into second, wind out to a safe 4500 and press the button as I manually shift into third and wind that out , theoretically to 4500 and press the button for the last half of third putting you in final overdrive and your above 130 with the 041 cam , the former cam was done at 130 mph. Technically I won't go those speeds, because my tires are rated for 80 mph.When the 041 cam was installed in this motor, it was still pulling forward at 130 mph, so I don't know what the top speed yet is?

[P@blo]

P@blo's response: TraderMike, you are clearly a car guy, which is a good thing, but the challange falls on you to fix your own junk. A lot of good advice given in that regard.

Out with the old and in with the way you want to make it type of deal...

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by P@blo

Pablo's response: Trader Mike, you are clearly a car guy, which is a good thing, but the challenge falls on you to fix your own junk. A lot of good advice is given in that regard.

Out with the old and in with the way you want to make it type of deal...

Your point is clear and concise; however, no one touches this Motor but my roommate and I, sure we sent the Heads out and that was the only one to do any work on this Vehicle.

The challenge still holds, anyone who wants to help gets an at-a-boy from me, Mike out.

You take the at-a-boy to the bank and cash it in!

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

The Degree wheel just came in, so now we can find out where the Intake center line is? One of the many Wheels online had the instructions written on it and I simply copied them onto my log book. We can now get going on that part of this project, using the written instructions, outside where they are needed. The under the Hood stuff and car parts are painted and the motor is prepped. for paint, that has yet to have arrive. I am very curious to see if the Cam is out of spec. Since we advanced the timing of the Cam/Valve event by some 6 degrees @ the Crank or 3 degrees @ the Cam, we found no damage to the Pistons nor the Valves, thank you God. I see no metal in the oil or the oil filter and the Crank Bearings seem to be in spec., their tolerances recorded and posted by the way, for anyone to inspect. The Head remanufacture has yet to give me his prognosis about the Heads and I specifically asked him if any of the intake valve seats were dislodged, blown off or damaged?

The Cylinder walls seem to be waring slightly unevenly as per the schematic that I posted, Is that normal type ware or not? There is 0.005- 0.010 side clearance at the Piston to Cylinder wall Clearance, is that a nominal measurement?

I just got off the phone with the Butler boys and they are sending the Gaskets out to me ASAP. The Head Gaskets are the good ones they say and I will need to use Copper spray on the Heads, prior to Installing them, "why the copper spray"?

I can't make that final determination weather to rebuild the bottom end of this Motor until the Head prognosis is in.

[tom s]

Where did you measure the piston clearance?Tom

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

I just got off the phone with the Butler boys and they are sending the Gaskets out to me ASAP. The Head Gaskets are the good ones they say and I will need to use Copper spray on the Heads, prior to Installing them, "why the copper spray"?

Does a better job of sealing up the head to block water passages vs
no copper spray.

Tom V.

[NeighborsComplaint]

1) Pistons with offset pins installed backwards will clatter like a diesel on cold startup until reaching operating temp.

2) Rods hung backwards will seize on the crankshaft or spin bearings as the crank fillet wedges the connecting rod cap up.

3) Running the car in an enclosed garage with duct hose exiting outside the garage directs all the exhaust sound away from the car
and you hear mechanical noises that were there all along but couldn't hear over the normal exhaust.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

1) Pistons with offset pins installed backwards will clatter like the diesel Engine on cold start-up, until reaching operating temp.

2) Rods hung backwards will seize on the crankshaft or spin bearings as the crank fillet wedges the connecting rod cap up.

3) Running the car in an enclosed garage with duct hose exiting outside the garage directs all the exhaust sound away from the car
and you hear mechanical noises that were there all along but couldn't hear over the normal exhaust.

You said: 3) Running the car in an enclosed garage, with the duct hose exiting outside the garage, directs all the exhaust sound away from the car and you can hear the mechanical noises that were there all along, but couldn't hear over the normal exhaust.


That explains that thank you, however I did hear some unexplained noise once I got the Vehicle on the road, testing and tuning. I turned off the AC and took that load off the engine. The vibration had us install a rubber spacer between the external Electric fan and the Condenser unit, that helped. We tried to put the Vehicle in neutral to see if that made a difference, after the rubber spacer was repaired at the condenser, this made no difference. We elected to pull the Heads and just in time, I might add, before we sucked in an Exhaust valve or two, we will purchase all new Exhaust Valve seats and have them installed in these "067"- D-port Heads, the Valves will be ground to factory specs. by the way and the Heads surfaced flat, I wonder if that would increase the compression too much, the factory CR for my Heads/Motor is 10.75, by the book, for the HO version?

I have not heard back from the Head shop yet, I specifically asked him to note weather or not any of the valve seats came off the Boss that they rest on, especially the Intake Valves, I am concerned if the Umbrella seals, popped up off the machined Boss, that they covered? We replaced the Valve seals with the "041" Cam Installation while we were there, so they are like new. One thing I thought of is whether or not the worn Valves could have any noise attributed to what I was hearing? The Head Gaskets did not have any cross contamination or ripped Gaskets and no water in the oil and I have not learned if the Valve Guides are damaged. The Trans. seams perfect and I don't think it has anything to do with that noise and the Gear Vendors and Rearend work as expected without contributing to any noise issue.

If when I put Humpty Dumpty back together, I have a 50/50 chance that the noise went away back into Cyber space, from where it came from, one could only hope, I am optimistic at this point, because the bottom end of this Engine has always been the strongest part of this build, why would it fail me now? But you never know, we shall see. I have elected to go for it and take my chances, as I have done in the past, trial and error, two steps forward and three steps back.

You never can tell what you buy in the second-hand market, I did not overpay when I purchased this project, therefore repairing this Engine is not a surprise to me. What surprised me is that the Pistons were installed into each Cylinder in reverse and they were installed that way on purpose. With the exception of number two, Cyl.
which is the only one that is installed correctly, still I wonder, if there was a race reason for that move?

You said: (1) Pistons with offset pins installed backwards will clatter like diesel on cold startup until reaching operating temp.

Mikes reply: I have not experienced that yet; however, I wonder if the extra load of the Thrust being on the wrong side is the main reason why my Engine runs hotter than many other people that I have spoken to over the internet, all that extra friction?

You said: (2) Rods hung backwards will seize on the crankshaft or spin bearings as the crank fillet wedges the connecting rod cap up.

Mikes reply:

Do you mean having a Radius's Crank adjacent to the flat side of a Piston?

I wish that we took a better look at the bottom end when we removed the Oil pan to see if the orientation was compromised or not, however we attempted to measure the tolerances and noted them in one of the posts. If only we had known to look. One day when I do take this Motor completely down, it will be on the Engine stand.

I think this Motor should be built to stock spec. and sold to someone who needs this 1967 YK code 428 ci with the Tri-power Intake Carbs. to obtain the Value out of their 1967 Vehicle. I would take those proceeds' and purchase one of those Ram air fives with the Aluminum Blocks and heads with 700- 800 hp.

Thank you for your input that helps me not only learn but to make an intelligent decision based on known facts by people who have been there and done that and that goes to all of you participating in this noise fact finding conundrum I find myself knee deep into. I am still on the fence about whether or not to install the Pontiac cooling mod., primarily because Butler does not use this mod. , nor do they know about it, Hummm....

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Does a better job of sealing up the head to block water passages vs
no copper sprays.

Tom V.

I would guess, "now that you stated what Copper spray is used for"; Copper spray might be used as this? In a marine application, Copper in bottom paint and Zink Anodes applied to steering components and outdrives are sacrificial material to save the said parts?

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by tom s

Where did you measure the piston clearance? Tom

My roommate measured the Cylinder wall to Piston to be from .005 to .010" and you can inspect all the data we published on this post in photos we drew and then submitted to the PY forum. He measured the clearance at the Cylinder top and measured the Cylinder wall thickness in 3 areas: top, middle and bottom, there are several drawings, you must look at each and if you need more data, we will oblige. Presently, we installed the Oil pan, but we recorded and posted our finds to this post. If we have to, we can pull the Oil pan to provide additional data, we did submit the Rod and Thrust and Piston side clearance already in one schematic. We did not know about the Rod to Crank fillet or rounds orientation, until we had already installed the Oil pan.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 400 Lemans

https://www.ebay.com/itm/18600481862...Bk9SR_rtjfG9Yg Looks like a nice short block. Good price on all of that stuff. Trip to Ca. to get it through.

You are correct, I could build this motor with the money I save and like you said, he is not shipping. I am Leary, when someone is selling something that he knows nothing about and admits it, takes no responsibility either. From the first glance it looks too good, but if you look closely enough, I don't see any Machined Cross Hatched Hone marks on the Cylinder walls either.

[Cliff R]

Fix what ya got, fix it to the best of your abilities within your budget.......it's right in front of you.....and you know it has some major issues.

It's not "minor" to have rods in backwards, and some of the pistons facing the wrong direction. NOTHING good comes from any of that.

Throwing this bandaide fix at just prolongs the agony. Do it now, do it right, then enjoy the benefits of your time/funds spent. Even better you woln't get nearly as big of a "pucker factor" when you start spinning the big RAIV cammed 428 past 5000rpm's, or further.....FWIW......

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

43 years ago, I spent $300 for the Heads on a 327 ci Chevy. Today is $225/each and $150 in parts = $600 out the door. I paid him and I need to pick up the Heads in a couple of days. All 16 Valve Guides need remanufacturing, two Exhaust seats need to be installed and the Valves are reusable. He told me he was replacing the Valve seals even though I replaced them with the "041" Cam and there new, I forgot to ask him if they got damaged or not. I looked inside his shop today and it looked well equipped and he had lots of aluminum Heads in stock, from the looks of things, he has plenty of inventory on the shelves.

He is resurfacing the Heads for flatness and cutting the Valves and seats to Factory 1967 specs. From what I have read, the Pontiac 067 D-port Heads are the best Machined parts write out of the factory, compared to other GM or Ford and Crysler ones and they show it. The Heads have no cracks in the castings thank goodness and are salvageable. Butler Gaskets are on the way and let's see what happens in the near future, I trust the bottom end of this motor and if I were a betting man, I would say there is life left down there. Nobody has proven to me that I should rebuild the bottom end because of a noise that eludes me. There is lots of time to build it later, crossing my fingers as I say that. The Engine paint came in today and the detailing continues on schedule. The degree wheel has arrived and we are ready to find true TDC, so we can again advance the Cam knowing the true Valve position this time around.

[Cliff R]

"Nobody has proven to me that I should rebuild the bottom end because of a noise that eludes me."

Forgive me if I didn't read all the responses, but at this point in my life I don't have an hour and a half to give up. If someone else actually installed pistons backwards in an engine build, by accident or on purpose, then did a 100,000 mile test I missed it.

So far as I know I'm the only one that actually installed 8 pistons in the WRONG direction and ran the engine like that. It was NOT good. Made "odd" noises, used a bit too much oil for my liking, and you could just tell something wasn't right with it. I left it that way for 10,000 miles and it just got worse. The rings never "set" as good as they should or the pistons slapping around some in th e bores didn't allow them to seal up well, doesn't matter. I pulled the engine and moved them to the correct locations with the "F" on the front of the pistons facing forward. That immediately fixed ALL the issues including some oil consumption and the engine went on to be flawless for another 90,000 miles.

A lesson early in my learning curve I made sure NOT TO REPEAT........FWIW.......

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"Nobody has proven to me that I should rebuild the bottom end because of a noise that eludes me."

Forgive me if I didn't read all the responses, but at this point in my life I don't have an hour and a half to give up. If someone else actually installed pistons backwards in an engine build, by accident or on purpose, then did a 100,000 mile test I missed it.

So far as I know I'm the only one that actually installed 8 pistons in the WRONG direction and ran the engine like that. It was NOT good. Made "odd" noises, used a bit too much oil for my liking, and you could just tell something wasn't right with it. I left it that way for 10,000 miles and it just got worse. The rings never "set" as good as they should or the pistons slapping around some in th e bores didn't allow them to seal up well, doesn't matter. I pulled the engine and moved them to the correct locations with the "F" on the front of the pistons facing forward. That immediately fixed ALL the issues including some oil consumption and the engine went on to be flawless for another 90,000 miles.

A lesson early in my learning curve I made sure NOT TO REPEAT........FWIW.......

I asked this before regarding moving pistons but must have been overlooked... wont moving pistons to different cylinders after the engine has been broken in & ran for awhile cause problems with rings sealing? Or do you keep the rings in the same cylinder swapping them to the other pistons? Never heard of swapping pistons/rings to a different cylinder after break in.