[Jay S]

As long as you measured and checked the cam timing properly and it is coming in at 109.5 I would expect it to be fine.

Don’t assume that the corresponding keys work right according to the instructions. They often do not. Always measure and check when using those keys.

Here a quote from someone that did a lot more cams than I have. It can be true for 9 way set too, even though the instruction all say the cam timing is moved half that. The instructions are actually wrong, the key way are in 4* increments at the crank, and only move the cam timing 2*. I have never actually seen a timing set that works like the instruction say. Just like this Joe Sherman quote:

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Butler’s composite gaskets crush to around .042”. to .044” thick.

Blue Fel-Pro crush to about .045”, most cheaper head gaskets crush to .045” also.

I assume the cam is still using the comp 9-way timing set using full advance 4th key yet, as reported earlier. Could be just a miscommunication on my end. I will reiterate it though, the 4th key should be 8* advanced, each key changes the advance 2*. Using the extreme 4th key ends up at roughly 105.5* if it started at 113.5*.

Like Cliff said, If Head to Block Quench is marginal, too bad. If the cam is advanced too far, you'll wish you never touched the cam timing. If you're convinced that all is good though, carry on.

There is plenty of valve to piston clearance using the SPC-8 cam, that is the "041" Cam, with the 1.5 rocker arms. No reason to bother checking that. The clearance should be good, unless the installation was improperly done.

Let me go over the math with you, I think we both made an error in our calculations: You are measuring in Crank degrees and I am measuring at Cam degrees to start.

You go 113.5 - 8 degrees at the Crank = 105.5 advanced at the Crank.

Measuring the way, you are, I beg to differ, here is why, 113.5 = 8 + 1.5 degrees (built into the Cam) = 9.5
113.5 - 9.5 = 104 advanced at the Crank.

Mike is measuring via the Cam degrees: 4 advanced degrees + 1.5 (built into the Cam) = 5.5
113.5 - 5.5 = 108, A little more advanced than my 109 target, but I have read people advancing their race timing to between 108-109.

If I am wrong or I have advanced this Engine too far, please correct me now, before it is too late.

P.S You said: " Butler’s composite gaskets crush to around .042”. to .044” thick.

Thus, we add Piston TDC to Deck clearance @ .023" +.042” crush = .065 Quench, in my case approx.? Still a safe place to be for now?

By the way the Piston to cyl. walls are smooth to begin with and the Piston clearance is between .005" - .010", in addition the Cam Bearings looked so good that we used them when we installed the new "041" Cam. For this very reason we deduced that the Crank Bearings would have held up as well. The lower part of this Engine has been dependable so far, never a noise anomaly until the Trans. disinegration.

I firmly believe that accident caused the majority of the issues today, especially the Thrust impact through the Trans. thrusting toward the Crank and lastly arriving at the Harmonic Balancer. The Head is a time related issue and stands alone, this is my view, and I am sticking to it. Nothing happens from nothing here it all happened at once, too bad I am still repairing this Engine from the accident I had, running over a root beneath an asphalt driveway.

[Jay S]

I attached the instructions for Comps 9 way timing set instruction, those instructions are pretty much the same no matter who’s timing set you buy.

The problem is the instruction are often wrong on timing sets, the key moves the crank twice as much at the crank than the number indicates (each key changes it 4* at the crank, not 2*). The keys are often not all that accurate either. Could be this timing set is different though, I am mentioning it incase your assuming the instruction are correct, and didn’t bother rechecking the cam timing after using the multi key timing set..

If you degreed the cam in after you used those keys and it worked, don’t take the timing cover off, it should be correct.

If you assumed the instruction are correct and did not degree the cam timing. Then take the timing cover off and degree it in and make sure. Every multi key timing set I have had so far would have advanced it 8*, not 4*.

.

[Jay S]

Your math isn’t wrong. The instruction are often wrong, and the keys are not all that accurate. You have not said that you degreed the cam in after using the different key. If you did and it worked as planned, your good. Pay no attention to me.

[Jay S]

I think Cliff said it best when he said even experienced builder’s mess up with those multi key timing set! Easy to do when the instruction are crap!

I have had a cloyes 3 way timing set move cam timing 8*, which means the 2 different crank keys changed it 16*. Instructions said it would move it 4*, or 2* at the cam…Freaking ridiculous!

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

One thing I've tested that most folks haven't is moving cams around then street testing, followed by track testing.

Another "myth" about advancing cams is "making more low-end torque". You may see or "feel" a shift in power but may not make as much power anywhere as before the move. When I advanced the cam in my first 455 from 109ICL to 107ICL it KILLED it at the track at every point on the run including 60' time. I also moved it to 111ICL, and on up to 113ICL.

It was a TURD at 107 and again at 113, if you went by the track times, but superficially "felt" pretty peppy at 107ICL and made a little tiny bit more vacuum at idle. Remarkably, the car ran almost the same at 109 and 111ICL, just fuzz-nut quicker in 60' at 109 than 111.

In any case I would NEVER just advance a cam just to improve low end power, street manners or compensating for chain stretch, or following random advice on the NET from someone who probably Googled up their information instead of actually trying it out.......and, IF your chain is going to stretch out that much, buy a better timing set......FWIW.........

The article that I read, was a pro and like yourself he compared the different Cams with and without the Rhoads lifters, in a Station wagon no less and I figure My vehicle weighs as much and we use the same motor. He is a popular guy on the internet, I probably posted info. from him on one of my various Threads. He amongst many of you use a 108 to 109 advance with success, also each vehicle and track has different results with 1/4-mile vs 60' times.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Jay S

As long as you measured and checked the cam timing properly and it is coming in at 109.5 I would expect it to be fine.

Don’t assume that the corresponding keys work right according to the instructions. They often do not. Always measure and check when using those keys.

Here is a quote from someone that did a lot more cams than I have. It can be true for 9 ways set too, even though the instruction all say the cam timing is moved half that. The instructions are actually wrong, the key way is in 4* increments at the crank, and only move the cam timing 2*. I have never actually seen a timing set that works like the instruction say. Just like this Joe Sherman quote:

I agree totally with that statement!

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Jay S

I think Cliff said it best when he said even experienced builder’s mess up with those multi key timing set! Easy to do when the instructions are crap!

I have had a Cloyes 3-way timing set move cam timing 8*, which means the 2 different crank keys changed it 16*. Instructions said it would move it 4*, or 2* at the cam…Freaking ridiculous!

I read between the lines, as if the center notch is straight up and the cam has the built-in advance or did not need it because it was symmetrical in the first place. I for example am using an asymmetrical Cam. Anyway, the notch to the right and the one to left of center is 4 degrees each at the Crank and therefore 2 degrees at the Cam in each direction. Mikes 2 cents.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Your math isn’t wrong. The instructions are often wrong and the keys are not all that accurate. You have not said that you degreed the cam in after using the different key. If you did and it worked as planned, you're good. Pay no attention to me.

Ok, I think I am at 108 total advance at the Cam, now, you say you want me to check and prove this using the Degree wheel? If that is what you are saying, I like that idea. How do I prove that I am at 108 Cam degrees using the degree wheel, so I don't have to pull the water pump and timing cover off again, ruining the gaskets. Tonight, my roommate just did the Valve lash procedure on the Johnson Hydraulic Lifters and Cam using the Base Circle at Cam and the Valves being closed method.

Then we turned the nut 3/4 turn more while rotating the push rods until there is a slight resistance before the 3/4 turn. I believe we are advanced a little more than I intentionally intended, I was shooting for 109 total Cam advance, but I have read that 108 is also in the ball park for race ready concerns. I won't be taking this vehicle to the track to test whether it works at 60' times vs 1/4-mile times. What I want is a well-tuned Engine that is as performance orientated as it was built in 1967.

By the way this Motor is well documented with 2/22/68 date?, written on the Passenger side front Block. This 428 ci HO went to a machinist to be further modified with the "886" Cam and Tri-power Carbs. in 1968 and I possibly think someone Blueprinted this motor and balanced it for racing, just as my father did to his race vehicles. Now with the "041" Cam I am trying my best to make it performance orientated to the best of my ability. Oddly, the machine had to break down with odd noises for me to find out that the pistons are reversed and one isn't. I still believe that even though we won't know the reason until this Engine is fully disassembled, the why of it all, that the builder knew exactly what he was doing.JMO

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

.

To find the actual ICL, we placed the Dial indicator over the edge of the Intake Valves Hydraulic Lifter and measured the duration of the Cam @ .050" on both sides of the Valve duration Ramps by passing the .050" mark on the Dial Indicator first then moving toward the .100" mark first then rotating back to exactly 050", where we took our readings off the Degree wheel # and recorded that number, adding those numbers and dividing by two equals 112 degrees for the Intake c/l and 115 degrees for the Exhaust c/l, then to obtain the lobe separation angle we added these two numbers and divided by two equals 113.5 degrees. .

When degreeing in a cam, ONLY the intake lobe is used. You want to find the position of the intake lobe relative to the crankshaft when the piston is at TDC. It was at 112*. Who knows were it is now that it was monkeyed with.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Jay S

When degreeing in a cam, ONLY the intake lobe is used. You want to find the position of the intake lobe relative to the crankshaft when the piston is at TDC. It was at 112*. Who knows were it is now that it was monkeyed with.

Jay,
True. But if you don't have a cam doctor, then also checking the exhaust lets you know how close or if you really have the cam and LSA you ordered.

Stan

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Jay,
True. But if you don't have a cam doctor, then also checking the exhaust lets you know how close or if you really have the cam and LSA you ordered.

Stan

Stan, he was finding the LSA, and calling it the ICL.

I wrote that very simply so maybe he could understand it.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Stan, he was finding the LSA, and calling it the ICL.

I wrote that very simply so maybe he could understand it.

Jay,
I must have missed or miss read a post as I didn't see that.

Stan

[Jay S]

I probably edited the quote to far. Maybe this one is more clear. Seems to be finding the LSA, then calling it the ICL.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Jay,
True. But if you don't have a cam doctor, then also checking the exhaust lets you know how close or if you really have the cam and LSA you ordered.

Stan

Ok, let me try again, since I proved that the cam is ground as the manufacturer said it is, LSA = 113.5, Intake c/l = 112, Exhaust c/l = 115 and the LSA is determined mathematically only?

Now, I use the Intake c/l @ 112 and add 1.5 degrees built into the Cam from the Melling factory, sold by Butler, together = 113.5 what? is this the new Intake c/l that just happens to be the same as the LSA?

I have 113.5 whatever?

The Cam is advanced now @ 4 Cam degrees.

8 degrees advance @ Crank.

1.5 degrees, added into the Cam at the factory. 112 Intake c/l + 1.5 advance = 113.5 what?

Given the same information that I have, can you finish the equation, in Cam degrees, please?

I believe I am at: (1.5 + 4 = 5.5 advanced), 113.5 - 5.5 = 108 degrees new Cam timing. I used the 4th notch at the Crank here.

My original target advance was: (1.5 + 3 = 4.5 advanced),
113.5 - 4.5 = 109 degrees new Cam timing. I used the 3rd notch at the Crank here.

I believe one is as good as the other because I won't be testing to see at the track.

[Jay S]

The factory advance of 1.5* is subtracted from the lobe separation angle to find the installed intake centerline.
113.5* - 1.5* = 112 *
The installed intake centerline when you line the timing marks up like the factory setting, dot to dot” is suppose to be 112*. Which can vary, and is why it is better to degree the cam in.

You simply have no business using any of the other keys (other than the zero position) on the timing set unless you degree the cam in afterward.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Jay S

The factory advances of 1.5* is subtracted from the lobe separation angle to find the installed intake centerline.
113.5* - 1.5* = 112 *
The installed intake centerline when you line the timing marks up like the factory setting, dot to dot” is supposed to be 112*. Which can vary, and is why it is better to degree the cam in.

You simply have no business using any of the other keys (other than the zero position) on the timing set unless you degree the cam in afterward.

You said: The factory advances of 1.5* is subtracted from the lobe separation angle to find the installed intake centerline.
113.5* - 1.5* = 112 *

Mikes reply:

Thus: 112 degrees is the Installed intake center,
(112 I c/l)

Now, I added 4 degrees to the Cam timing, show me how you would proceed please next.

In addition, I agree when I am done, I will install the degree wheel again to prove that the advanced timing is actual.

I am already planning to pull the Timing cover with the water pump attached to install the degree wheel and pull back the advanced timing to the 3rd notch that is 6 degrees at the Crank or 3 degrees at the Cam.

Now that you know the plan, please do the entire math process, the way I should be doing it, so that I can see where the difference is between our thinking.

P.S. I installed the timing Chain gears at 12 0'clock each for Pontiac @ TDC of the compression stroke.

[Jay S]

Don’t change anything until you degree the cam in and find the position ICL is at now. After that you can better determine which key to use.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Don’t change anything until your degree the cam in and find the position ICL is at now. After that you can better determine which key to use.

I know I am 4 notches at the Crank and at the Cam I am 4 degrees advanced plus 1.5 in built into the Cam added together I am at 113.5 - 5.5 = 108 theoretically, now I must prove it by degreeing using the .050" method on the Intake Valve. Once we know where we are truly at, we can decide where to go from there.

[400 Lemans]

It's a good thing you are going to take it back apart and check it with your degree wheel. I think you are going to find out that you are at 104 degrees advanced and not the 108 that your looking for.