[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

+2

I figured that out quite a few pages ago, but still kept trying to help.

Degreeing a camshaft is simple, no need to make it complicated. Most novice/inexperienced engine "builders" get into trouble with mulitple keyway timing sets because they are either not very accurate or the directions are flawed, or a little of both. The 3 keyway variety with the cast iron sprockets are junk right to start with. I wouldn't let one within 20' of any engine I was building.......you can watch one stretch out if you stare at it long enough!

Seriously, when using stock cams, Melling in particular they are very accurate and if you are using a stock type Melling or Cloyes timing set and set it dot to dot it's unlikely you'll need to move it around at all. For builds like this one there is absolutely no need to do much more than put a 3/4" wide stock timing set on it, dot to dot, and move on. At most I'd turn the engine thru and watch the #1 intake lifter to make sure it starts moving a few degrees BTDC. That's close enough and good enough for this type of build.

I'd be 100,000 times more worried about having 7 pistons facing the WRONG direction and wondering even more about connecting rod orientation as well. Assuming all the pistons were pressed on the rods correctly you can't end up with one facing the right direction and seven the wrong way without a connecting rod or two in backwards. This potential issue would be at the TOP of my list of things to correct while the engine was out instead of knurling valve guides and Googling cam installation to the brink of extinction when all I needed to do at most was install a stock timing set, maybe a 2 degree offset key on the cam sprocket, and keep moving. I say this because every single "RAIV" cam I've installed with a stock timing set dot to dot has been within 1 degree of 112 ICL and the intake open point .050" a few degrees BTDC.

Not trying to be overly critical here, but with this type of build, (basicaly a backyard "special" with the emphasis on just getting it done on a shoestring budget), I'd want it as good as I could get it without spending money or time in areas that don't need it. Plus we've got enough compression here, too much quench, and hot climate that advancing the cam could bring more negatives into the equation that just leaving it in the stock position........FWIW........

Cliff,
How can both of these statements be correct? I would go with the second.

From Cam Dr data (Supplied by Ken Crocie / H-O Enterprises) of the Crane version of the 041

CAM_______Lift______Opens___Closes__Duration
_________________Deg_BTDC__Deg_ABDC_____________Ar ea____ICL
_________0.00100____45.82_|_119.83_|_345.65_|__26. 08_|_127.01
_________0.00350____35.55_|__98.83_|_314.38_|__26. 05_|_121.64
_________0.00400____34.21_|__96.55_|_310.76_|__26. 04_|_121.17
_________0.00600____30.14_|__87.77_|_297.90_|__26. 00_|_118.82

_________0.05000_____3.82_|__47.81_|_231.64_|__25. 27_|_112.00

Stan

[Cliff R]

That's pretty close to the specs Melling provides on the SPC-8 cam:

https://www.melling.com/wp-content/u...ck-294-304.pdf

For what's going on here worrying about where the cam is at would not be a priority for me. FIRST I'd find out why I have pistons and possibly connecting rods installed incorrectly, then move on to less important details like moving the cam around when it would be just fine installing it "dot to dot" with a good timing set........IMHO.....

One thing to keep in mind here and I don't know anyone else who has done it. I moved a RAIV cam 4 times in my 455 engine and street and track tested it at each position. 107, 109, 111 and 113ICL. The only place the engine even started to feel a little "lazy" was clear back at 113ICL. Even there it ran fine at the track and drove fine on the street.

This was in a car capable of DEADLY consistent drag strip runs with perfect traction. I saw less than a tenth loss in ET and less than 2mph on top end. You can't tell me that the OP would notice any difference anyplace no matter where that cam was in stalled in this particular build. Straight up.

I'd also mention that advancing the cam beyond two degree slowed the car down and hurt 60' times even though it is regugitated on these threads that "advancing the cam makes more low end torque". In reality these engines are pretty sensitive to the intake closing point and following blanket claims like that can cost us power and vehicle performance. Without direct testing we wouldn't even know it as the engine "felt" peppy, slightly more vacuum at idle speed, responsive and quick to rev at 107ICL, but with good traction at the track it ran WORSE at every point on the run..........so much for theory, and "seat of the pants" testing with these things.......FWIW.......

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Mikes reply:

(4) At .050", after passing to .100" and back to .050" on each of our tests we came up with these degree results:

109, 109.5, 110, 113, 115, 116, 113, 111.5, 110.5, 111.5, 111.5, 111.5, END.


This is the last thing that I was told to do above, we first found TDC and then we degreed in the New Cam timing using the 4th advanced key. We measured at .050", on each side of the Intake lobe, after removing the Timing cover for this exercise. I surmise that the above readings bring me to a safe 112 Intake C/L, just as the Cam milled the Intake from the factory, it is like the advance key did nothing and I am degreed back to straight up installation? I deduced this setting was "OK' and re-installed the timing cover. I hope for the last time.

My roommate took these readings and perhaps he took too many, but if he had stopped at only two, I would think that the new Cam position was at 109 or 109.5 which are the first two numbers on the list. Since he has more readings, how am I to interpret them? What is your interpretation of these figures? Since I am the Novis, I can only speculate. Also, I remember that someone stated that the numbers will vary, boy where you right.

I am past checking the lower end at this time, because we hooked up the Block to the mounts and secured the hardware. Since this Engine has run, God knows how many miles, I truly believe that I have time before I need to address the lower end. Someone pointed out that the Pistons are in backwards for race reason with factual data to back it up, made me think. Yes, this data is taken out of the hidden URL format as well as the Math, so my over 24,000 viewers can see it. This does not necessarily mean that I am going to continue to do this, as in the past, I learned my lesson when the administration shut down every post that I was in. I thank the current people involved with this discussion for helping with my decision.

This does not in any way mean you're wrong, it is just my way of doing things. Please give me the latitude that I need, even if you think I am wrong. I have leapt over every hurdle and so on... to get to where I am today with this vehicle. Never once have I had to go back over my work, once I've committed myself and was satisfied that my work was done to my satisfaction I moved on. This Piston thing is last on my list, because it does not affect me now, this does not mean that the Pistons have not already caused some irreputable damage over the last 50 years or so.

P.S. I Ordered the new Harmonic Balancer Kit from AMES N585 for the sum of $270 delivered, it has a heat-treated Hub and it is brand new, thank you very much. I must go now, because I need to read all that Math stuff that I posted, by for now Mike out!

[PAUL K]

Sounds like a good plan.

[Jay S]

When finding cam timing, if you get a bad reading. Throw that reading out, there is no averaging. It should be repeatable with in a half of degree.

Here are pretty common mistakes that can be made degreeing in a cam.

1. Degree wheel holder was loose on the crank. Degree wheel moves different than the crank every time the engine is turned.

2. Taking degree readings after moving the crank a different direction, you can only take degree readings in the direction the engine runs, otherwise the timing change slack throws the reading off.

3. Lifter was not following the lobe down on the closing side of the ramp.

4. Problems in measurements from the opening and closing side of the base circle. There is often a few thousandths difference between the closing side and the opening side on the base circle. It is called run out. It happens a lot on used cams. Find the ICL .050” from each side of max lift.

5. TDC was not found accurate.

[steve25]

Do yourself another favor just in case down the road a issue pops up.

Once you get everything bolted up ready to be fired up take the extra time to do a cranking compression test for your records / info and place this sheet in the glove box in a plastic bag so you don’t loose it.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

I don't know about you guys, but I am glad I read the Math, it should be a good reminder, if you have not performed the operation in years. JMO

P.S. My roommate would have accurately measured the Cam on the first two tries. Then I am sticking with my target advance of 109 degrees at the 4th key advanced at the Crank and be happy it finally all worked out to our expectations. The Cam specked out to Melling specs both at .006" and .050". The Math that I just read concurs with being a couple of degrees either direction is a nominal event and can't be helped in a situation like me, who is not racing. We will move on to Harmonic Balancer when it comes in.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by steve25

Do yourself another favor just in case down the road an issue pops up.

Once you get everything bolted up and ready to be fired up, take the extra time to do a cranking compression test for your records / info and place this sheet in the glove box, in a plastic bag, so you don’t lose it.

I will do that, I don't know about the glove box, because that is where I keep my Vehicle Book, that came in the car. The compression was good last time we took it and we have had zero issues since, thank God. I am hoping that after the Harmonic Balancer kit is installed that I won't have to use the Rec. 89-90 fuel without alcohol, because that would prove that the Pontiac and 421 mods are working correctly. Then I can use the 93 octane, that this motor wants.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by JSchmitz

I think the horse has expired...

A horse is a horse OfCourse OfCourse, Mr. Ed said it best, Wilber (horse noise)

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Jay S

When finding cam timing, if you get a bad reading. Throw that reading out, there is no averaging. It should be repeatable with in a half of degree.

Here are pretty common mistakes that can be made degreeing in a cam.

1. Degree wheel holder was loose on the crank. Degree wheel moves different than the crank every time the engine is turned.

2. Taking degree readings after moving the crank a different direction, you can only take degree readings in the direction the engine runs, otherwise the timing change slack throws the reading off.

3. Lifter was not following the lobe down on the closing side of the ramp.

4. Problems in measurements from the opening and closing side of the base circle. There are often a few thousandths difference between the closing side and the opening side on the base circle. It is called run out. It happens a lot on used cams. Find the ICL .050” from each side of max lift.

5. TDC was not found accurate.

Mikes reply:

That is very good advice, I can see where that makes a difference.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

This is a good place to look if you're interested in how the tooling is used to make a Cast Block into a Motor and Heads Remanufactured, I found it informative.

http://bhjproducts.com/index.php?mai...index&cPath=75

I made a mistake, I have 26,111 people as of now, that are viewing this post, unbelievable. I must be doing something right, thank you all for your views and I hope you learn something and don't be afraid to join into the conversation because all are welcome, it seems that there are the same few people joining in and I know that they did not view this site that many times. Mike out .

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

I'm NOT reading any of it. I tried to help out many pages ago but sadly was unable to make a dent in the OP's armor.

I've been at this deal for over 45 years, over 20 of it running a FULL-TIME business dealing thousands of customers. When I closed the books on the working side of the shop almost three years ago, I had completed just 13000 work orders. Most of that was carb work, but I also did quite a few engines, transmissions, distributors, set up some diff's, custom tuning, and did a few engine installs and swaps.

Over the years I have had quite a few folks come here asking me to help out with their "project" car. I learned very quickly to avoid any customer who wanted a "quick fix", "cheap fix", or ever uttered the words "just get it going for now (cheap) and I'll fix it right later". They NEVER do it right later. I don't care about that, however IF you take on their half-ars repair and charge them for it, the very first time they have any issues at all you will get a call telling you how it all worked fine BEFORE you touched it. Bottom line and getting to the point, NEVER, EVER cut a job short, band aid fix its or just patch it up so the car can keep going till you can do it better. ALWAYS bite the bullet, even if it's not in the budget to do it right the first time and while it's right in front of you.......FWIW.......

In this case I never say always and I never say never, I started with a second-hand project and it will always be a second-hand project. For that very reason and the reason that I am learning, at the same time, I am moving slowly and surely so that I may gain the experience you have already obtained in your lifetime. I built a 327 ci from scratch and did all the things you're talking about in the correct order only to have it stolen because the person that I commissioned the install into my 1967 Chevy flat windshield Van left the Engine in the van outside the building when he was told to put the engine in the building if not the van, he might have well stolen it himself, but I found out I was set up from the start by a tow truck driver , who ended up dead anyway. I must be able to learn from the mistakes of my predecessor, that began this project and cut the corners you speak of, not me. I am fixing his mistakes first and foremost; I thought you would have figured that out by now.

By the way the Vehicle is finished and tested in the driveway and I can say at this time that I am impressed with both the Pontiac and 421 cooling mods. As I have gained about 30 degrees cooler Engine temp. without using the Side Kick nor the Elec. fan in front of the AC condenser in drive way tests with the hood down and by using an Elec. squirrel cage fan, external to the vehicle, blowing air through the Radiator as in real world moving conditions. Soon to come are the test results coming up this weekend as I plan on highway driving, Plus, I have been gathering data as I tested in the driveway over the past 2 weeks.

For what it is worth, I like to repair everything in the area that needs repairing as you do. However, attacking the lower end of this motor is not an easy task and will take my saving the money to rebuild the lower end, like another grand with turning the Crank, new Bearings, Rings, Seals and possibly Pistons and Rods that need replacements as well. The Engine needs to be pulled, Block cleaned and Magnafluxed, Crank needs line- bored as well as the Cam, new rear main seal etc... "Not now later please".

When I commit myself to Degreeing the Cam to this forum, I will eventually get to it, better late than never and whatever the results. likewise, I said I would pull the Heads and while I was there, I performed the Pontiac and 421 cooling mods. You people said I can do better, so don't mock me for trying and succeeding please. My goal was to not have to use the Side-kick and Elec. fan out front of the condenser, except in an emergency like Parade driving or stuck in traffic, I have accomplished this finally. I have yet tried to run this vehicle without rec-89-90, instead I will be using unleaded 93 octain with 10 percent Alcohol in it, to see if the motor will vapor lock, it has not done so, since I doubled the fuel lines forward, used a by-pass filter to the fuel tank and removed the Alcohol from the fuel I burn.

You said this: "Over the years I have had quite a few folks come here asking me to help out with their "project" car. I learned very quickly to avoid any customer who wanted a "quick fix", "cheap fix", or ever uttered the words "just get it going for now (cheap) and I'll fix it right later". They NEVER do it right later. I don't care about that, however IF you take on their half-ars repair and charge them for it, the very first time they have any issues at all you will get a call telling you how it all worked fine BEFORE you touched it. Bottom line and getting to the point, NEVER, EVER cut a job short, band aid fix its or just patch it up so the car can keep going till you can do it better. ALWAYS bite the bullet, even if it's not in the budget to do it right the first time and while it's right in front of you".......FWIW...

I pulled my car into a Muffler shop for service to the Exhaust system, concurrently the starter had an Elec. problem. My roommate is an Elec. / Electronics master who was there also. The owner sold me a starter for the price it would have cost me to get towed. Great if I made it home. Mind you, if the owner would have let my roommate inspect his man's work, he would have been able to fix the wires that was the cause, in the first place. Now, the owner asked me if the starters Elec. was the problem or was the issue prior to coming to his shop. I told him yes it was, he said that most people say that he caused the problem and he was responsible for fixing it and he commended me on my honesty. But I never made it home and my roommate ended up repairing it on the side of the road anyway. So, the owner misdiagnosed the problem and had his guy install a new starter with the old wires "not" individually wrapped then taped off in a harness correctly. So, it works both ways and is the reason we do our own work on this car. The owner put an R+R person on an Elec. problem that had no right to evaluate an Elec. issue in the first place. I was in a jam and needed to get home, I paid for his professional ability and got taken. We had to fix it ourselves anyway after purchasing a part we did not need.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

P.S. My engine is clean inside for when I purchased this project, we put Trans. fluid in it with a new filter to clean out all passages and ran it for half an hour, we did this now as, there was a small amount of debris on the valley area where the lifters are, we are again 100% clean on the inside of this motor, FWIW

After the cleaning, we installed another new filter with ZDDP additive to the motor oil, on the dip stick reading. The Trans. fluid comes out a different color and that is how we know the Engine is well flushed, this won't hurt the motor and I do this on all my used engines that I buy. No, you won't find this in the owners manual but neither will you find reversing the Pistons on their Rods, that someone did to this Engine. What can it hurt; I stand by this method. I have the cleanest motor out of all of you, I bet! Plus, I will get more miles out of my Engines than any of you will, my oil pan is clean as well as under the Intake Manifold, as the day the motor was built.

[PAUL K]

Glad to hear you are making progress. Keep up the good work.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Ok, I am back, got the Flu /cold in October, better now.
We put the Engine back together with the 4th notch at the Crank which is 8 degrees advanced at the Crank and 4 degrees advanced at the Cam. Normal factory setting is 113.5 and we are at 109 to 109.5. We road tested several times and without running the AC the temp came up and that should not happen. Because the Head was shaved, guess 0.010" we think with the extreme advance and increased compression, we over did it, as far as the Cam advancement is concerned. As some of you said to go back to the factory setting of 113.5 and be happy with that, I tend to agree, this is not a race car and at least I finally degreed in this motor and learned about advancing the Cam. We are pulling the timing cover once again hope fully for the last time. I did notice that the Vehicle takes off the line well with the 109 BTDC advance as the racers like, but in my case, I don't need the extra heat in the motor running on the street, most racers aren't using AC anyway. With the rebuilt Heads I am in new territory, like starting all over learning what this motor now likes to be tuned at. First things first, no more advanced Cam, at this time, going back to 113.5, so I can break in the Trans. Fortunately, the Trans. works well, thank GOD. I am posting the tests that we have performed over the last month or so. We think the Pontiac and 421 mods lowered the temp. but we can't prove that until we pull all the unnecessary advance. We Have the Ign. timing @ 6 degrees BTDC and we are all in by 3000-3500 rpm. We did the compression test both wet and dry and the numbers look fair for the age of this Engine. Thanks for the advice in advance and further testing is needed to see if pulling the advanced timing at the Cam keeps the temp. normal. I believe that rebuilding the Heads changes everything. JMO, Mike out.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

A few more documents with my results to follow!

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

A few more photos to come!

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Butler’s composite gaskets crush to around .042”. to .044” thick.

Blue felpro crush to about .045”, most cheaper head gaskets crush to .045” also.

I assume the cam is still using the comp 9-way timing set using full advance 4th key yet, as reported earlier. Could be just a miscommunication on my end. I will reiterate it though, the 4th key should be 8* advanced, each key changes the advance 2*. Using the extreme 4th key ends up at roughly 105.5* if it started at 113.5*.

Like Cliff said, quench is marginal to bad, if the cam is advanced too far, you'll wish you never touched the cam timing. If your convinced all is good though, carry on.

There is plenty of valve to piston clearance with the SPC-8 cam and 1.5 rockers. No reason to bother checking that. Should be good unless the installation is really messed up.

After re-reading this post some, if this is correct and I am more advanced than I thought, I simply must go back to the beginning and pull the advance out completely using the factory settings of 113.5 and set the dial indicator and degree wheel up to verify that I am at 113.5 actual. Recent tests indicate that I am as hot as if I am running the AC. In addition, the newly remanufactured Heads must be adding to the raised Heat. JMO.

Since the Heads are installed, one can calculate the crushed gaskets that I bought from Butler Brothers with the metal ring inserts to find the new quench by using the newly found compression ratio stats that I have provided? A typical Head job takes off .010 " shaved to flatten the Heads, approx. Also, the 428 ci Pontiac motor is 10.75:1 CR, out of the box, so what is my CR today? Can these new facts I have provided be why This motor is hotter than it should be? I will say it again, I am in a new territory and need some help, this engine has become a new project with the Head changes and advanced Cam timing, especially if the timing Cam numbers are doubled compared to what I have been thinking, getting confused here. I am thinking that the CR has risen with this build and the Fuel could be too low in octane with these new changes I have made to this Engine?

[lust4speed]

I might have missed it. Was the actual cam card posted?

Somewhere above I also read something about racers and cruisers, and not needing to be a racer. Actually, the suggested centerline by the cam company will provide the best efficiency, and as an added benefit, the most power. Any additional movement would be nothing more than a band-aid and probably reduce power and possibly raise temps. If you are wanting to band-aid the engine to reduce dynamic compression it would require a slight retard of the cam.

I've never seen an accurate timing chain setup where you could even start to trust the advance or retard keys. Most are ±1° up to almost 2° off.

Most of the heads I've had the machine shops clean up usually didn't exceed a .006" cut. The 10.75 ratio quoted by Pontiac was always closer to about 10.25:1 to start with, and that is still too much for today's premium pump gas.

As far as FelPro, they specify a crushed thickness of .039" and the used gaskets I've removed were right at that.

A great cooling system will remove heat from minor to mild build mistakes, a marginal cooling system won't remove heat from a properly running engine. Where does your system fall?

[NeighborsComplaint]

6* BTDC for initial advance will make it run hot.

You need 12* BTDC to run right but your total timing needs to be limited so it doesn’t detonate. Get a recurve kit and keep the total timing around 28* with your CR.