[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

+2

I figured that out quite a few pages ago, but still kept trying to help.

Degreeing a camshaft is simple, no need to make it complicated. Most novice/inexperienced engine "builders" get into trouble with multiple keyway timing sets because they are either not very accurate or the directions are flawed, or a little of both. The 3-keyway variety with the cast iron sprockets are junk right to start with. I wouldn't let one within 20' of any Engine I was building.......you can watch one stretch out if you stare at it long enough!

Seriously, when using stock cams, Melling in particular, they are very accurate and if you are using a stock type Melling or Cloyes timing set and set it dot to dot it's unlikely you'll need to move it around at all. For Engine builds like this one there is absolutely no need to do much more than put a 3/4" wide stock timing set on it, dot to dot, and move on. At most I'd turn the engine through and watch the #1 intake lifter to make sure it starts moving a few degrees BTDC. That's close enough and good enough for this type of build.

I'd be 100,000 times more worried about having 7 pistons facing the WRONG direction and wondering even more about connecting rod orientation as well. Assuming all the pistons were pressed on the rods correctly you can't end up with one facing the right direction and seven the wrong way without a connecting rod or two in backwards. This potential issue would be at the TOP of my list of things to correct while the engine was out instead of knurling valve guides and Googling cam installation to the brink of extinction when all I needed to do at most was install a stock timing set, maybe a 2-degree offset key on the cam sprocket, and keep moving. I say this because every single "RAIV" cam I've installed with a stock timing set dot to dot has been within 1 degree of 112 ICL and the intake open point .050" a few degrees BTDC.

Not trying to be overly critical here, but with this type of build, (basically a back-yard "special" with the emphasis on just getting it done on a shoestring budget), I'd want it as good as I could get it without spending money or time in areas that don't need it. Plus, we've got enough compression here, too much quench, and hot climate that advancing the cam could bring more negatives into the equation that just leaving it in the stock position........FWIW........

Your reply: "Plus, we've got enough compression here, too much quench, and hot climate that advancing the cam could bring more negatives into the equation that just leaving it in the stock position"

Mikes Ans: "This is why I have decided to pull the extra timing out of this Cam/particular build. But I also needed to replace the Harmonic Balancer and rebuild the Heads, first, this is my priority, you must agree that before I rebuild the lower end, these current issues take precedent, please say I am right, so I can believe in you. The Pistons have been installed backwards since 1968 and for a reason that has been authenticated to function in race applications by your peers. The Pistons can hold out a little longer! I am not cheap nor am I working on a shoe string budget, instead I like to believe that I prioritize repairs and due to my lack of experience takes me longer than you. Keep in mind you made the same mistakes that I made first, correct? Let me mature in the automotive business in my own time. I don't like to do things twice. You said it yourself: " Don't be overly critical here". You have been a great help and I hope you continue to assist me.

The question is:" why do you people say "dot to dot" when that is a Chevy timing Gear installation procedure, "not" Pontiac. Are Pontiac Timing Gears installed @ 12'-0'clock each with number one intake and Exhaust Valves in the closed/compression stroke position on TDC? You are confusing us. Between Timing an Ignition system with the Vacuum plugged off when tuning, these two important things to do are Offen misunderstood and I want to clarify that here with the truth, lot of misinformation going on in these forums.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

6* BTDC for initial advance will make it run hot.

You need 12* BTDC to run right but your total timing needs to be limited so it doesn’t detonate. Get a recurve kit and keep the total timing around 28* with your CR.

Believe it or not I purchased all the parts for my Distributor, a curve kit with weights and springs, the adjustable Vacuum canister and a special stop device that looks like a ruffle potato chip for lack of better terms. I read up on how and why to do this. I now put that in the same category as this hype to advance the Cam bull. Yes, I will probably try that procedure if not just for the experience of trying something new. This Distributor that came with this project uses Electronic Ignition (MSD) Tech. and is factory timed at 6 degrees BTDC and all in by 3000- 3500 rpm @ 39 degrees and works well for my stock application, if it isn't broken don't fix it. I believe it is the Cam timing that is way over done, that is if the person is correct in that the instructions are wrong and that 8 Crank degrees means 16 and 4 cam degrees means 8, then I am too far advanced. So, I go back to the start and use the degree wheel and use factory 113.5 and forget race application as a wet dream. However, if after I go back to factory Cam 113.5 advance and I still over heat, I will follow your advice and recurve the distributor. Would you have me send the Distributor out to be spun by a pro? Also, of the two-timing issues discussed here which would you do first?

P.S. Keep in mind that this is a current overheating issue manifesting itself after the Heads were remanufactured and the Cam timing was advanced to 109 from 113.5 BTDC. By the way I proved the above numbers to be true and the Cam is to Melling specs, so how can the person who said the instructions are wrong be correct? More confusion!

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by lust4speed

I might have missed it. Was the actual cam card posted?

Somewhere above I also read something about racers and cruisers, and not needing to be a racer. Actually, the suggested centerline by the cam company will provide the best efficiency, and as an added benefit, the most power. Any additional movement would be nothing more than a band-aid and probably reduce power and possibly raise temps. If you are wanting to band-aid the engine to reduce dynamic compression it would require a slight retard of the cam.

I've never seen an accurate timing chain setup where you could even start to trust the advance or retard keys. Most are ±1° up to almost 2° off.

Most of the heads I've had the machine shops clean up usually didn't exceed a .006" cut. The 10.75 ratio quoted by Pontiac was always closer to about 10.25:1 to start with, and that is still too much for today's premium pump gas.

As far as FelPro, they specify a crushed thickness of .039" and the used gaskets I've removed were right at that.

A great cooling system will remove heat from minor to mild build mistakes, a marginal cooling system won't remove heat from a properly running engine. Where does your system fall?

We did not get a Cam Card at all, we used the Melling "041" Cam info. from the internet to prove this Cam was advanced to 113.5 BTDC as advertised. We used the fourth notch which is 8 degrees advanced at the Crank and that equates to four degrees at the Cam. The current advance tested at .050" on the intake Lobe is 109-109.5 BTDC advanced, the Cam is milled and we proved it to be correctly milled as Melling states.

We are stumped to why we gained heat after having the Heads remanufactured. We also performed the 421 and Pontiac cooling mods on the Block and heads and expected the motor to be even cooler than before. We are seeing temp. risen to the "as using the AC" in traffic. Normally prior to these recent repairs, I used a side kick fan and a Fan in front of the Condenser unit as extra cooling when running the AC. We thought we could get by without using the extra fans due to the 421 and Pontiac cooling mods that we did.

Now, I go around the block a couple of times without the AC and the temps. are 220 F degrees at the gauge which is reading plus 30 degrees higher, than the actual temp. Which is 190 degrees F. The only additive I have not reinstalled is the Water wetter that I normally use. I can't imagine lack of that one ingredient to be the culprit, then again, I should not discount its purpose, in which I have been using it for years.

We are using a gallon of antifreeze and distilled water. The radiator is new copper and I use a Temp. Clutch HD truck type with Factory Fan and Shroud. The 180-degree Special thermostat has 3 bypass holes in it. Yes, we have a very good cooling system installed. We are burning Rec-89 unleaded without alcohol and the fuel is well filtered with a bypass return to the fuel tank with Tri-power Carbs. We use two fuel lines forward via an electric fuel pump. There is no under the hood high temps. and the Carbs. are air induction via a scoop out the hood near the windshield.

The temp. readings all around the Engine compartment using a Lazor gauge are good. I have many band aids to keep the under-hood temps down that I needed to get where I am now like modifying the water pump, blocking the exhaust crossovers off under the intake manifold. The Carbs. are wrapped in insulation as well as the lines to each one. The intake manifold has a specially manufactured Phenolic between the Vally pan and under the intake lower base.

The fuel bowls have Phenolic plates under them as well. We followed the instructions to the letter to block off holes in the block and to drill the holes in the heads between the exhaust ports. The water fills the block first and raises toward the rear 4 cylinders upper head and flows out the water pump without dropping down into the lower block. This is called 421 and Pontiac cooling mods.

I am going to set the Cam timing to a factory 113.5 and add the water wetter back into the system and lastly recurve the Distributor as suggested by a member. Anyone with other ideas, please make suggestions. Mike out.

[Cliff R]

Believe it or not I purchased all the parts for my Distributor, a curve kit with weights and springs, the adjustable Vacuum canister and a special stop device that looks like a ruffle potato chip for lack of better terms.

JUNK! Those aftermarket recurve "kits" are now and never have been worth two squirts of duck poop. Taking out VA timing with the "waffled" shaped part on the rear screw is just STOOPID right to start with. The travel of the VA should be limited on the OTHER SIDE by controlling when it stops, not when it starts. The springs they supply don't have good tension properties nor are they made of good USA spring wire so go "soft" after placed in service. PM Suntuned and ask him about all that when you get a moment since you don't value my knowledge when it comes to these things.

The Pistons have been installed backwards since 1968 and for a reason that has been authenticated to function in race applications by your peers.

I provided adequate DIRECT experience with doing this and all the negatives that came with it. None of my "peers" provided much more than theory and regurgitated inaccurate information about what happens when you install pistons with the offset in the WRONG direction. That's just STOOPID right to start with and nothing more than an old "racers trick" that never really did much aside from cause piston slap on a cold engine. Since you don't beleive me below is a quote from a very well known authority on these ( Lars) who has written many articles on tuning and other things associated with this hobby:

"Many years ago, I made the mistake of installing some pistons backwards. It did not work well at all, and I ended up doing a teardown to correct it.

The thought that a bunch of yahoos on a Forum think they know more about piston design than the engineers who design pistons is pretty absurd. Even when you have custom-made race pistons designed and built they are of the same basic design geometry with offsets and an oval cam-grind shape to compensate for asymmetrical expansion due to asymmetrical mass. There is a damned good reason the piston designers do not design the pistons to mimic a backwards-installed piston."

The question is:" why do you people say "dot to dot" when that is a Chevy timing Gear installation procedure, "not" Pontiac.

"Dot to Dot" applies to ALL of these engines, Chevy and Pontiac included. As the builder you have the option to put the "dot" on the top gear at either 12 oclock or 6 oclock. I personally think it's easier to put the top gear with the dot at 6 oclock simply because it's much closer to the dot on the lower gear and less likely to get miss-aligned if you had too many beers during the assembly process! Seriously, it is the SAME end result either way as when you turn the engine ONE revolution the dot on the upper gear simply moves 180 degrees and the dot on the lower gear moves 360 degrees.

Despite this thread running on at least 18 pages longer than it should have I tried to help provided good advice from well over four decades of doing this sort of thing, over 20 of it full time logging over 13,000 work orders in my shop (I would say that I did nearly half that many off the books but the IRS might be watching so I'll keep the numbers low). Instead of following my advice you continued to listen to folks who have about as much direct experience doing this as I spent on the crapper this morning. A few have a tad bit more than that, but in any case after all the work you now have an engine that makes so much heat you are unable to get rid of it even with all the cooling system mods in place. From what I've seen here with these engines it is far better to take steps to keep them from transfering all that heat into the jacket water right to start with, than to try to get rid of it. So basically it is better to treat the disease than to deal with the symptoms.......FWIW and IMHO........

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

That's pretty close to the specs Melling provides on the SPC-8 cam:

https://www.melling.com/wp-content/u...ck-294-304.pdf

For what's going on here worrying about where the cam is at would not be a priority for me. FIRST, I'd find out why I have pistons and possibly connecting rods installed incorrectly, then move on to less important details like moving the cam around when it would be just fine installing it "dot to dot" with a good timing set........IMHO.....

One thing to keep in mind here and I don't know anyone else who has done it. I moved a RAIV cam 4 times in my 455 engine and street and track tested it at each position. 107, 109, 111 and 113ICL. The only place the engine even started to feel a little "lazy" was clear back at 113ICL. Even there it ran fine at the track and drove fine on the street.

This was in a car capable of DEADLY consistent drag strip runs with perfect traction. I saw less than a tenth loss in ET and less than 2mph on top end. You can't tell me that the OP would notice any difference anyplace no matter where that cam was installed in this particular build. Straight up.

I'd also mention that advancing the cam beyond two degrees slowed the car down and hurt 60' times even though it is regurgitated on these threads that "advancing the cam makes more low end torque". In reality these engines are pretty sensitive to the intake closing point and following blanket claims like that can cost us power and vehicle performance. Without direct testing we wouldn't even know it as the engine "felt" peppy, slightly more vacuum at idle speed, responsive and quick to rev at 107ICL, but with good traction at the track it ran WORSE at every point on the run..........so much for theory, and "seat of the pants" testing with these things.......FWIW.......

You say: "One thing to keep in mind here and I don't know anyone else who has done it. I moved a RAIV cam 4 times in my 455 engine and street and track tested it at each position. 107, 109, 111 and 113 ICL. The only place the engine even started to feel a little "lazy" was clear back at 113 ICL. Even there it ran fine at the track and drove fine on the street.

Mike would like to know: "Do you remember what the operating temperatures were like at those advanced Cam timing settings and did that vehicle use AC like mine"?

"Did you have to cool off the Vehicle between race runs due to elevated timing caused tempertures"?

"Did your Vehicle experience Heat soak issues between race runs".

This is what I am experiencing presently, I had to stop and leave the hood open after driving say half an hour, you can't just pull up to a gas station and run water through the radiator like you could in 1975, when I worked in Sears gas station. With the long lines to get gas we had many people come in after waiting on line and we would cool them down leaving their autos running by flowing water across the radiators until it was safe to open the cap to add water to the plastic water bottle and radiator. My sensing heat soak issues is why I might need to re-introduce Water Wetter back into my Block. This product keeps the water molecules from foaming up next to the cylinder walls and keeps the air bubbles from forming and sticking to the cylinder walls cavitating like a Boats Prop in the water, slipping and causing aeration around the Prop for example. As long as the Friction/Heat from the pistons going up and down can conduct or convection to surrounding air, through the Iron Block or through the oil that can move the heat to coolers and to the water passages to the radiator, one can keep heat soak levels to a minimum.

[Cliff R]

Mike would like to know: "Do you remember what the operating temperatures were like at those advanced Cam timing settings and did that vehicle use AC like mine"?

Yes, never even thought about running hot no matter how I drove the car. Slow to warm up, never went past 180 degrees for any reason. No A/C.

"Did you have to cool off the Vehicle between race runs due to elevated timing caused tempertures"?

No. The testing was done in the hottest part of the summer and no cooling off period really needed although you automatically get one at most Test & Tune nights due to the number of cars that attend. I typically got around half hour or so between runs when that testing was done.

"Did your Vehicle experience Heat soak issues between race runs

No, have never had any type of "heat soak" issues with my last 3 engines which were all zero decked 455's with the quench right at .039".

I had LOTS of issues with the first 428 that I put in the car way back in the late 1980's. The pistons were in the holes some at TDC and small dish in them (stock type 428 replacement forged pistons). From the minute it was installed it ran hot. I noticed that it warmed up very quickly in contrast to the zero decked 455's that took a long time to get to 160 degrees and nearly FOREVER to finally reach 180. Not only did the 428 with a lot of quench in it heat up quickly it would only stay at 180 degrees for a short time and "creep" up at stoplights and extended cruising on the highway. It did OK cruising at light load city driving. If steady cruised it would go past 200 degrees and a few times got up to 230. When it got that hot I'd pull over, lift the hood and let it cool down some. No efforts with tuning or improved cooling system parts or mods put a dent in that deal anyplace. I was glad when the engine failed so I could replace it with one I spent more time/funds on which ran flawlessly for ten more years until I replaced it with the first 455 engine.

There ya go, some more DIRECT experience with two 428 engines using factory iron heads. The first ill-fated 428 (crank failed) used a factory 744 cam and was topped with #96 heads (one was cracked when removed, probably from the over-heating, so didn't use them again). The second used the HO Racing HC-01A cam (light years better at every RPM than the 744) with 6X-4 heads...........

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

Believe it or not I purchased all the parts for my Distributor, a curve kit with weights and springs, the adjustable Vacuum canister and a special stop device that looks like a ruffle potato chip for lack of better term s.

JUNK! Those aftermarket recurve "kits" are now and never have been worth two squirts of duck poop. Taking out VA timing with the "waffled" shaped part on the rear screw is just STOOPID right to start with. The travel of the VA should be limited on the OTHER SIDE by controlling when it stops, not when it starts. The springs they supply don't have good tension properties nor are they made of good USA spring wire so they go "soft" after placed in service. PM Suntuned and ask him about all that when you get a moment since you don't value my knowledge when it comes to these things.

The Pistons have been installed backwards since 1968 and for a reason that has been authenticated to function in race applications by your peers.

I provided adequate DIRECT experience with doing this and all the negatives that came with it. None of my "peers" provided much more than theory and regurgitated inaccurate information about what happens when you install pistons with the offset in the WRONG direction. That's just STOOPID right to start with and nothing more than an old "racing trick" that never really did much aside from cause piston slap on a cold engine. Since you don't believe me below is a quote from a very well-known authority on these (Lars) who has written many articles on tuning and other things associated with this hobby:

"Many years ago, I made the mistake of installing some pistons backwards. It did not work well at all, and I ended up doing a teardown to correct it.

The thought that a bunch of yahoos on a Forum think they know more about piston design than the engineers who design pistons is pretty absurd. Even when you have custom-made race pistons designed and built, they are of the same basic design geometry with offsets and an oval cam-grind shape to compensate for asymmetrical expansion due to asymmetrical mass. There is a damned good reason the piston designers do not design the pistons to mimic a backwards-installed piston."

The question is:" why do you people say "dot to dot" when that is a Chevy timing Gear installation procedure, "not" Pontiac.

"Dot to Dot" applies to ALL of these engines, Chevy and Pontiac included. As the builder you have the option to put the "dot" on the top gear at either 12 o'clock or 6 o'clock. I personally think it's easier to put the top gear with the dot at 6 o'clock simply because it's much closer to the dot on the lower gear and less likely to get mis-aligned if you had too many beers during the assembly process! Seriously, it is the SAME end result either way as when you turn the engine ONE revolution the dot on the upper gear simply moves 180 degrees and the dot on the lower gear moves 360 degrees.

Despite this thread running on at least 18 pages longer than it should have I tried to help provided good advice from well over four decades of doing this sort of thing, over 20 of it full time logging over 13,000 work orders in my shop (I would say that I did nearly half that many off the books but the IRS might be watching so I'll keep the numbers low). Instead of following my advice you continued to listen to folks who have about as much direct experience doing this as I spent on the crapper this morning. A few have a tad bit more than that, but in any case after all the work you now have an engine that makes so much heat you are unable to get rid of it even with all the cooling system mods in place. From what I've seen here, with these engines it is far better to take steps to keep them from transferring all that heat into the jacket water right to start with, than to try to get rid of it. So basically, it is better to treat the disease than to deal with the symptoms.......FWIW and IMHO........

This is not telling me why my Engine is overheated, unless you believe the backward Pistons has something to do with it, too bad I don't have the option to be the first to build this motor to begin with , so I can build it correctly in the first place.

[steve25]

There’s a fundamental problem with running too low of a compression for a given cam, and this is compounded by having too much deck clearance.

The problem is the speed of the burn .
To make the highest cylinder pressure out of such a combination you need to run as much timing as you can for a given rpm .
Here’s another factor within the above that I posted that has a big effect on how hot the motor runs.

The lower the cylinder pressure along with a slow burn rate leaves a bunch more heat in the cylinder.

It’s residual heat that was not able to be used when it would have been the most effective in the small crank rotation range where it could have been used to create the most force on the piston.

The motor running hot is due to this residual heat that was not used to make power.

To there for get rid of this unused heat the exh side needs really good low lift flow .
This helps the heat / high pressure to move out on its own and does not require as much the action of the piston rising up on the exh stroke to pump it out.

Unfortunately I have flow tested a good amount of home bowl ported heads who’s exh side now flows less then stock.

Also a big consideration if your running headers and have a temp issue is if they are rust scaled up on the inside.
This condition add’s a lot of restriction to the exh side.

It’s has also been seen by fully instrumented dyno testing that at full throttle it was found that for any given rpm that the exh temps recorded would go up anywhere from 25 to 30 degrees for every degree of timing that the motor really wanted!

It’ should be clear from all of this that a low compression motor combo ( under 10 to 1 depending on the cam) needs far more precise and detailed tuning then a average home street car builder of one or two engines in his life time is going to know how to deal with in terms of a wrong combo being used and or build issues compounding a problem.

[Formulajones]

I believe your overheating issue is due to multiple things, none of which have anything to do with the cam being advanced 4 degrees. Providing that was actually verified with a degree wheel.

The LSA on that camshaft should be around 113 degrees. Installing it at 109 ICL is only 4 degrees advanced and extremely common on pretty much all camshafts today, in fact most will grind that much advance into the cam right from the start.

The tune is one of the biggest factors that play a roll in how hot the engine runs, and 6 degrees of initial timing is no where near enough. I would suspect the curve isn't where it needs to be and likely the vacuum advance not working properly or in an efficient range. I would address that first before I even thought about moving that camshaft again. That's just for starters. We can address other things once that is taken care of.

[Cliff R]

This is not telling me why my Engine is overheated, unless you believe the backward Pistons has something to do with it, too bad I don't have the option to be the first to build this motor to begin with , so I can build it correctly in the first place.

Right to start with I tried to help out thru this entire process even though it dragged out for many pages (370 responses and counting) with lots of information being supplied from various sources, some OK, some poor, some useless, and some conflicting.

Absolutely and for sure what needs to happen with these things in any and all cases is to spend the time/funds to do the job correctly. This does NOT mean going top shelf and spending $10,000 on it. It does mean to correct any and ALL problems while the engine is sitting right in front of us to the best of our ability and within our financial means. I've been there many, many times over the last 50 years and will have done more of this than most who are reading this.

Any time I cut corners (for sure I was born under the wrong sign) or did a blunder it came back to haunt me with a vengeance. IE, incidentally installing 8 pistons BACKWARDS in a 400 SBC build. The poorly marked HY-DUTY pistons left a scar in my learning curve I will NEVER forget as it took considerable time/funds to deal with all that drama and take the needed steps to correct it. I passed the information on to you and you stuck your nose up at it like a cold side order of spinach.....so lets move on.

I also mentioned POOR experiences with knurling valve guides, at best that's a half ars temporary solution to a permanent problem. Reducing bearing area and pushing cast material around in an attempt to tighten up 16 loose holes in the heads just doesn't cut it, never has and never will.

Then the cam degreeing thing. You took a very simple procedure and made it so complicated from the outside looking in I have no idea whatsover where the cam actual is. You'd have been WAY further ahead here to just go down to NAPA and buy a Cloyes, Melling or Dyna-Gear 3/4" wide stock timing set and put it in without moving the cam anyplace. Those timing sets teamed up with a stock type RAIV cam will put you right where it needs to be with at most a quick peak while you were turning the engine thru to make sure the intake is opening a few degrees BTDC. Moving the cam (without deadly accuracy) BEFORE placing the engine in service was risky and it appears that now you may be paying for it.....IMHO.

In any case your cranking compression numbers are "low". I would have expected closer to 170psi with a 428 build over 10 to 1 and RAIV cam, not down around 150psi. Once again I'm not sure why accept for the fact that these engines are sensitive to the intake closing point and the real RAIV cam has over 80 degrees overlap. Whatever the case with all that you have combustion efficiency issues as mentioned by Steve above which are contributing to or causing the engine to take the heat and dump it into the coolant vs making power out of it then effectively scavenging the waste into the exhaust stream.

Sorry I'm not able to help much more than that and truely hope that you will be able to figure it all out, at least enough so that you can enjoy the engine for a while before you are forced to pull it out, fix all the known issues and make improvements to it to get a better end result........

[78w72]

After all the cooling mods & now drilling the block for other cooling mods that shouldnt be required, it still runs hot or hotter than before even when temps are in the mid 70's?? Hope you can figure that one out...

One thing I noticed in the hand written documents.. is that you claim/think shaving .010 off the heads has raised the compression from 10.75 to... 11.75, that is absolutely incorrect, might want to run the numbers on that again. .010 off the heads will only remove a couple CC's, which will raise the comp maybe a quarter of 1 point if that. The overheating issues are NOT related to .010 milled heads.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

The Pistons have been installed backwards since 1968 and for a reason that has been authenticated to function in race applications by your peers.

I provided adequate DIRECT experience with doing this and all the negatives that came with it. None of my "peers" provided much more than theory and regurgitated inaccurate information about what happens when you install pistons with the offset in the WRONG direction. That's just STOOPID right to start with and nothing more than an old "racers trick" that never really did much aside from cause piston slap on a cold engine. Since you don't beleive me below is a quote from a very well known authority on these ( Lars) who has written many articles on tuning and other things associated with this hobby:

Cliff,
Interesting how when you have done sometime it is fact and accurate. I and others have posted that we have run the pistons installed reversed and had no problems, but of course that doesn't matter.

Stan

[steve25]

A mill rate of .010” on a open chamber head takes off
Exactly 1.66 CCs.
It takes the removal of 4 CCs to get a solid 1/4 point increase in compression.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

THINGS THAT MAY MAKE A DIFFERENCE!

(1) Add Water Wetter to the Block with Antifreeze and Distilled Water. This product keeps the Cylinder walls liquid solutions mentioned above from collecting. Keeps Damaging air bubbles from adhering to cylinder walls causing the area to be slippery from air to let heat transfer, cavitation free, hence makes the water Wetter. Read the label I use it.

(2) Move the Cam Timing from 109-109.5 BTDC, back to the Factory Specs. of 113.5 BTDC.

(3) Continue to burn Rec. 89-90 Alcohol free Unleaded. Once I solve this problem, I will try 93 Octane Unleaded Fuel with 10% Alcohol to gain the higher burn quality, that is if it does not Vapor lock, as it has in the past. The worst-case scenario is that I go back to using Rec.89-90 Unleaded Fuel without the Alcohol in it. Alcohol in gas will burn or bubble up earlier than unleaded gas causing Vapor lock that can stall an Engine while you're driving, not good, especially if you don't have power steering.

(4) The last resort is to recurve the Distributor, as suggested by one and unsupported by another.

(5) Prove, by using the Degree Wheel and Dial Indicator, what the current Advance BTDC actually is! Because there is a discrepancy in the directions, according to Forum members, to whether or not the directions mean 4* @ the Cam is actually 8* @ the Cam and 8* @ the Crank means 16* @ the Crank. This discrepancy could mean that I am not advanced to 109-109.5 BTDC at all, I could be at 104-105 BTDC. Continued driving using the wrong setting is both dangerous to the Engine and could be why I am experiencing an increase in Temperature, causing Piston/Rod Knock and a major Heat issue associated with Rod/Piston Rattling. I have been calling this advanced Detonation: Heat soak by mistake. Even though the Cam Timing, in my case, is possibly too advanced, the symptoms sound the same as Ignition Timing. It is as if you were to turn the Distributor too far advanced, when you rotate the entire Dist. too far in one direction and forget to pull it back some while tuning your Engine. Pre-Detonation sound occurs and you can hear its nasty sound that causes the Aluminum from the Pistons to flake off and melt to the Spark plugs inner electrode porcelain area. You should inspect this area as I will soon. The trick that I read is to turn the Ignition Timing at the Distributor until you slightly hear this sound as the increase in RPM stops rising and then move the Distributor back in the opposite direction some and then lock down the Dist. bolt to the Blocks flat flange area, on a tune-up.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 78w72

After all the cooling mods & now drilling the block for other cooling mods that shouldn't be required, it still runs hot or hotter than before even when temps are in the mid 70's?? Hope you can figure that one out...

One thing I noticed was in the handwritten documents. is that you claim/think shaving .010 off the heads has raised the compression from 10.75 to... 11.75, that is absolutely incorrect, might want to run the numbers on that again. .010 off the heads will only remove a couple CC's, which will raise the comp maybe a quarter of 1 point if that. The overheating issues are NOT related to .010 milled heads.

Good to know and I was not expecting this recent work to raise the Temps. So, the search continues, I have recently left my thoughts on the matter, please let me know what you think when you come across my theory, thank you in advance.

[i82much]

I have always felt that many of these forum debates would be better resolved by cage fighting.

[Cliff R]

"Cliff,
Interesting how when you have done sometime it is fact and accurate. I and others have posted that we have run the pistons installed reversed and had no problems, but of course that doesn't matter."


Although it does NOT really apply here since the OP only has one piston in wrong I'm happy for you and your friends who install pistons in total disregard of the engineers who design and folks that make and sell them.

Let's just start building ALL of these engines with the pistons in backwards. Then maybe we can keep up with some of the big block Chevy powered cars because we reduced some piston drag even though we'll have to deal with piston slap and the rings walking all over in the bores and wearing out sooner than they should!......LOL..

Instead of picking on me at every opportunity you can find MAYBE you should help the OP figure out why his engine has low cranking pressure for the compression ratio/CID and why it's dumping too much heat into the jacket water? That would be more productive that trying to bust my balls instead, because there is a LONG line of folks before you and not one of them has even put a scratch on my armor let alone a dent in it.......FWIW......

[Kenth]

I guess the right piston is wrong for some.....

At least one piston is correctly mounted according to the manufacturer's point of view.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"Cliff,
Interesting how when you have done sometime it is fact and accurate. I and others have posted that we have run the pistons installed reversed and had no problems, but of course that doesn't matter."


Although it does NOT really apply here since the OP only has one piston in wrong, I'm happy for you and your friends who install pistons in total disregard of the engineers who design and folks that make and sell them.

Let's just start building ALL of these engines with the pistons in backwards. Then maybe we can keep up with some of the big block Chevy powered cars because we reduced some piston drag even though we'll have to deal with piston slap and the rings walking all over in the bores and wearing out sooner than they should!......LOL..

Instead of picking on me at every opportunity you can find MAYBE you should help the OP figure out why his engine has low cranking pressure for the compression ratio/CID and why it's dumping too much heat into the jacket water? That would be more productive than trying to bust my balls instead, because there is a LONG line of folks before you and not one of them has even put a scratch on my armor let alone a dent in it.......FWIW......

you said: "Figure out why his engine has low cranking pressure for the compression ratio/CID and why it's dumping too much heat into the jacket water"?

We use a HD mini starter and glad to say it starts even in hot conditions, except currently with this new issue we have to let it cool down and then in a half an hour with the hood up it starts well. I believe that once we return the Cam back to the Factory 113.5 Cam timing we should be back in business, at least that is our hope anyway. This is a new problem and we will beat it as we have for the past 10 years dealing with this project. Three steps forward and two steps back learning at each junction. Persistence beats resistance: is my motto.

This Vehicle has 2 batt. and a Sudbury switch to control 1,2 or all, we installed HD wires from the Trunk to the Engine compartment at a box junction that my roommate created from stuff around the house. We use Heat shrink wrap and cloth type wire loom on all the wires. We don't use ends like the Car uses, instead we are wired directly. My roommate, Lou, is a master electronics expert and he created the under the hood wire harness from the bulk head forward using the Factory schematics and the proper Gauge wires. The MSD and the box we created for example use extra computer fans to cool the Elec, plus it is located in the air stream where it stays cool. He even lit it up with LEDS. This is all custom built using all Factory harnesses everywhere except the Engine compartment. We find that eliminating the Factory ends keeps us from having to purchase expensive sockets and we can do a better longer lasting job by eliminating junctions.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Kenth

I guess the right piston is wrong for some....

At least one piston is correctly mounted according to the manufacturer's point of view.

The number 2 cylinder is installed as per the Factory specs, with the notch forward, the remaining 7 are installed with the notch toward the rear. I need to go through my archives to find photos of the bottom end of this motor that I took when we removed the oil pan that came bent from the last owner to see what orientation the Rods are in. I also replaced the oil pump with a new one at that time. We added oil shields under the Valve covers at that time. In the first year we installed the new Johnson Hydraulic lifters, HD push Rods, Timing Gear was installed new at purchase time, then I bought a more adjustable one that I don't seem to need, but it stays and will be returned to service without the advance, it has double roller chain too. Maybe about a few years ago we installed the 041 Cam that sat because the Trans. went boom. Now that the Trans. i being tested it proves to be flawless with all the upgrades and tight tolerances that we were very meticulous while micrometering everywhere we are working. We built a $3000-unit TH 400 and this project has a $2500 -$3000 Gear vendors behind the Trans. Hurb Adams suspension at all four corners. Roll bars throughout, four-wheel disc and posi. traction top it off. Plus, every option known to man just need to finish with the cruise control someday if I ever get the chance.