[Cliff R]

In all the years of owning and driving these vehicles had one flex plate crack. It was behind a stock 350/300hp engine in my 1970 Impala. At that time a daily driver. It started to make noise at idle speed, not so much when revved up. It evenually manifested into enough noise an inspection of everything going on in that area was required. The crack was discovered, flex plate replaced, power restored and no more noise. I think WAY back then the part was less than $20 and a couple of hours on the lift at the hobby shop at the Military base I was stationed at to swap it out.....

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I Plan on using this Dist. for now, we are now timed:

6* BTDC. Initial @ 700 RPM and 9" HG.

40* BTDC. All-in @ 2250 RPM and 21" HG.

"These settings are with the Vacuum advance on"

Here is the curve:
RPM Degrees BTDC. HG
(1) 650-700 6 9
(2) 1000 18 13
(3) 1250 26 14
(4) 1500 30 16
(5) 1750 34 18
(6) 2000 38 20
(7) 2250 40 21
(8) 2500 40 22
(9) 3000 40 22

So your initial is low and your total timing (without vacuum) is also going to be very low. The engine is missing quite a bit of performance and efficiency that way. Maybe when you feel like revisiting it we can straighten it out.

[Cliff R]

I'm still totally confused as to WHY you would want all the mechanical advance in early when you are chasing detonation issues even without any load on the engine?

All in by 2250rpm's is at least 1000rpms earlier that I would have it happening, at least until you determine whether or not the engine pinging in that range. There isn't one ounce of additional engine power or vehicle performance going to happen using that quick of a curve on a 428 engine with over 10 to 1 compression using iron heads on low octane currently available pump gas.

Good thing you have the RAIV cam in it or you would have already put half the pistons in the oil pan with the stock cam on 89 octane fuel running the engine temps you are seeing in the hot/humid Florida climate........IMHO......

[Stan Weiss]

What is you CR? What psi are you getting from a cranking compression test?

Stan

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

What is your CR? What psi are you getting from a cranking compression test?

Stan

Please see post @ 507 at the bottom there is a chart in the attachment area, you can't miss it. Mike out.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

I'm still totally confused as to WHY you would want all the mechanical advance in early when you are chasing detonation issues even without any load on the engine?

All in by 2250rpm's is at least 1000rpms earlier that I would have it happening, at least until you determine whether or not the engine pinging in that range. There isn't one ounce of additional engine power or vehicle performance going to happen using that quick of a curve on a 428 engine with over 10 to 1 compression using iron heads on low octane currently available pump gas.

Good thing you have the RAIV Cam in it or you would have already put half the pistons in the oil pan with the stock Cam on 89 octane fuel running the engine temps you are seeing in the hot/humid Florida climate........IMHO......

Cliff, keep in mind that this is where my dist. is and maybe the reason it doesn't work. I don't completely understand Timing and this way you can see the mistakes I am making so you can show me the correct way. No two Engines are the same just as the curves on those Engines differ.

Did you hear the Guy that is saying that my problem could be the Flywheel?

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

So your initial is low and your total timing (without vacuum) is also going to be very low. The engine is missing quite a bit of performance and efficiency that way. Maybe when you feel like revisiting it, we can straighten it out.

I can tell you this I do have the dist. rebuild kit in stock, how to if you want to use it is the question?
Some people are saying it is crap and all. I would use it; it is all I have to work with. Comes with the Vacuum Canister, weights and springs, stop device and instructions. I am told that I can use it with my springs added to the springs in the kit or we can use the existing dist. that I have. I will be back on line tomorrow, been on for 24 hours allready.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

I can tell you this I do have the dist. rebuild kit in stock, how to if you want to use it is the question?
Some people are saying it is crap and all. I would use it; it is all I have to work with. Comes with the Vacuum Canister, weights and springs, stop device and instructions. I am told that I can use it with my springs added to the springs in the kit or we can use the existing dist. that I have. I will be back on line tomorrow, been on for 24 hours allready.

I typically don't use those kits, not the weights and stuff like that anyway.

What I'll do is replace the pin bushing (which is usually plastic and missing) with a bronze bushing and solder it in place. Then I'll weld the slot to limit the amount of centrifugal advance that I want and that also determines the initial I'm looking for. I'll use the original weights, and I may or may not swap springs around to get the curve to come in somewhere around 3000 or so depending on the engine. Sometimes sooner, sometimes later.

Only then will the vacuum advance come into play and that takes a bunch more modifications to work right. I prefer a light tension spring since most engines I tune don't make a ton of vacuum, especially at the elevations I drive.
The best way I've found to accomplish that is use an adjustable vacuum can (Crane or Accel) just to have the adjustable spring tension only, the rest of that kit is thrown in the garbage. I'll then weld the slot on the vacuum can to limit it's travel to give me about 10-12 degrees of additional timing (when the engine is making vacuum), which is usually starting around 6 inches and all done by 9-12 inches of vacuum. This part is only critical for very light throttle driving/cruising, and can play a roll in idle quality depending on whether you use ported or manifold vacuum but that's an entirely different discussion.

Explaining all this on the internet is about impossible. I'd have to have the distributor and the car in my hands to get it all dialed in, while in the process making sure top dead center is found and checking that the balancer is correct.

[Shiny]

As a spectator trying to learn from the advice given, I'm struggling to follow this thread but appreciate your commitment and effort to learn from these experts.

Maybe it would help to re-state the problem(s)? Overheating? Pinging? Timing effect on both? Cam advance effect on both? Suitability of the cam?
All of the above?

As to your timing curve, separating the mechanical from the vacuum advance curves might help others interpret the timing effect on your problem, whether it is pinging or overheating or both...

You are being advised 6 degrees at idle is low and the total advance maxing out at 2250 rpm is early. Hard for anyone to guide you on modifying it without a clear separation between mechanical and vacuum contributions to the total.

If you are unfamiliar with all this, there are good references online. Ask and I'm sure you will be pointed to good tutorials.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I typically don't use those kits, not the weights and stuff like that anyway.

What I'll do is replace the pin bushing (which is usually plastic and missing) with a bronze bushing and solder it in place. Then I'll weld the slot to limit the amount of centrifugal advance that I want and that also determines the initial I'm looking for. I'll use the original weights, and I may or may not swap springs around to get the curve to come in somewhere around 3000 or so depending on the engine. Sometimes sooner, sometimes later.

Only then will the vacuum advance come into play and that takes a bunch more modifications to work right. I prefer a light tension spring since most engines I tune don't make a ton of vacuum, especially at the elevations I drive.
The best way I've found to accomplish that is to use an adjustable vacuum can (Crane or Accel) just to have the adjustable spring tension only, the rest of that kit is thrown in the garbage. I'll then weld the slot on the vacuum can to limit it's travel to give me about 10-12 degrees of additional timing (when the engine is making vacuum), which is usually starting around 6 inches and all done by 9-12 inches of vacuum. This part is only critical for very light throttle driving/cruising, and can play a role in idle quality depending on whether you use ported or manifold vacuum but that's an entirely different discussion.

Explaining all this on the internet is about impossible. I'd have to have the distributor and the car in my hands to get it all dialed in, while in the process making sure top dead center is found and checking that the balancer is correct.

Mikes reply:

We installed a new Hardened Hub with the Balancer that came in the kit that cost $270.

Next, several people say that the timing is "not" the problem, I have a mechanical noise issue, one person thinks it could be the Flywheel. Not a bad theory, since my entire drive train forward was affected by the Trans. accident. We are currently proving or disproving that theory as we speak. By this weekend we will have pulled the Flywheel out. Depending whether or not it comes out in pieces will determine my next step.

Since I can't do anything with my dist. except use the parts that I purchased with the parts I have and I can buy anything online when we decide to build the Dist., we will have to set it up here, besides how else am I going to learn Timing 101 if I don't do it myself. So, let's get past this ghost noise first.

P.S. I own the adjustable Vacuum Canister and I could buy that Bushing kit online, plus I have the Black stop, off round, corrugated edge adjustable stop too. Also, in my archives I have a drawing of how to modify the Factory dist. Cam and large weights to a tighter tolerance. From what I have read one can mix the factory springs with the kit springs for a more precise Curve? The "041" Cam is degreed to factory specs. and the Cam is proven to be Milled to Melling Specs. as well. All this was done recently when we took all the advances out of the adjustable Timing Gear kit, which were at zero, no advance except in the Cam is 1.5 degrees from Melling factory. We also have the hand-held Vacuum pump to assist in setting up the Vacuum Canister to a set pull from start to stop.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

We decided to remove the Flywheel first, due to the fact that it is on the drive train side, that was most affected by the accident involving the Trans. We finally got it out Friday night and we can't see any stress related cracks from the accident. However, there are "out of round" bolt holes, through the Flywheel to the Crankshaft, that are suspect. There are two shims, one on each side. One is thin and the other is about 1/8" thick and more like a spacer. Both contain holes for the Crankshaft bolts, they too are out of round. The very thin one, I liken to a Brake Caliper thin metal behind the pad that makes less noise when one uses Brake Quite on it, I am only guessing to why the Manufacture used this on a Flywheel. It might be doing the opposite, in my case and making the new ghost noise. Mainly, we think that the "out of round" holes are the culprit. The fact that we pulled the Flywheel to begin means that we must replace it with a new one. I am in a new territory here; any input is gravely needed here. We don't know if there is any type of Magnaflux test required here?

At the bottom of this page are photos of the Flywheel that we pulled out of my 1967 428 ci HO Engine, What kind of a price range should I be in for this street Driven Vehicle and from whom should I buy from.

MIKE OUT. Number 2 should be .006 runout.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Shiny

As a spectator trying to learn from the advice given, I'm struggling to follow this thread but appreciate your commitment and effort to learn from these experts.

Maybe it would help to re-state the problem(s)? Overheating? Pinging? Timing effect on both? Cam advance effect on both? Suitability of the cam?
All of the above?

As to your timing curve, separating the mechanical from the vacuum advance curves might help others interpret the timing effect on your problem, whether it is pinging or overheating or both...

You are being advised 6 degrees at idle is low and the total advance maxing out at 2250 rpm is early. Hard for anyone to guide you on modifying it without a clear separation between mechanical and vacuum contributions to the total.

If you are unfamiliar with all this, there are good references online. Ask and I'm sure you will be pointed to good tutorials.

All the information is in this thread and there are other Threads that I have been involved in that have the rest of my info. documented.

You can look at anyone's Threads that they communicated in ever, if you go into each one's own Threads that they either started or were involved in.

You could start from the beginning of this very Thread for a wealth of info. That you may enjoy and learn from as well. Don't cut yourself short, get one of those readers as I have done, let it read back to you. Personally, I use Microsoft Edge's reader and you can go out and grab spell, grammar add-on's, the forum is very much wanting us to use as little space between sentences, beware of that, Mike out.

P.S. Most of the people that are following me have been for the past couple of years and they are up to date without having to read back to the beginning. Also, I have pages of Dist. Curve and advance info. from over the internet, both written and in my own hand-held notes or stored in the Archives. That comes soon, now we're tracking a ghost noise, believed to be mechanical, as in the Flywheel as theorized by a PY member.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

So your initial is low and your total timing (without vacuum) is also going to be very low. The engine is missing quite a bit of performance and efficiency that way. Maybe when you feel like revisiting it, we can straighten it out.

Mike said:


Quote:
Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012 View Post
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I Plan on using this Dist. for now, we are now timed:

6* BTDC. Initial @ 700 RPM and 9" HG.

40* BTDC. All-in @ 2250 RPM and 21" HG.

"These settings are with the Vacuum advance on"

Here is the curve:
RPM Degrees BTDC. HG
(1) 650-700 6 9
(2) 1000 18 13
(3) 1250 26 14
(4) 1500 30 16
(5) 1750 34 18
(6) 2000 38 20
(7) 2250 40 21
(8) 2500 40 22
(9) 3000 40 22

So, your initial is low and your total timing (without vacuum) is also going to be very low. The engine is missing quite a bit of performance and efficiency that way. Maybe when you feel like revisiting it, we can straighten it out.

Mikes reply:

It looks at second glance, that I am "all- in" by 2,500 RPM, 40 * BTDC., @ 22 HG. This test must have been using the Vacuum advance hooked up to get these high numbers.

P.S. Time for me to start shopping for a new Flexplate, wish me luck!

[P@blo]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

All the information is in this thread and there are other Threads that I have been involved in that have the rest of my info. documented.

You can look at anyone's Threads that they communicated in ever, if you go into each one's own Threads that they either started or were involved in.

You could start from the beginning of this very Thread for a wealth of info. That you may enjoy and learn from as well. Don't cut yourself short, get one of those readers as I have done, let it read back to you. Personally, I use Microsoft Edge's reader and you can go out and grab spell, grammar add-on's, the forum is very much wanting us to use as little space between sentences, beware of that, Mike out.

P.S. Most of the people that are following me have been for the past couple of years and they are up to date without having to read back to the beginning. Also, I have pages of Dist. Curve and advance info. from over the internet, both written and in my own hand-held notes or stored in the Archives. That comes soon, now we're tracking a ghost noise, believed to be mechanical, as in the Flywheel as theorized by a PY member.

I think he means get a Pontiac service manual not reference your own threads for correct information? No need to reinvent the wheel here as you have a close to stock 428 and 20 pages with a bunch of bandwith waisted.

Any local Pontiac clubs around you to get some hands on help? Too much going on here and forgot what your original question about the 041cam even was.

1. Search Pontiac resources
2. Search forums for previous similar info posted.
3. Still can not find info post question, get answer, and let the thread die.

This thread is over two years old Mike and you are still asking...

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by P@blo

I think he means get a Pontiac service manual not reference your own threads for correct information? No need to reinvent the wheel here as you have close to stock 428 and 20 pages with a bunch of band-with wasted.

Any local Pontiac clubs around you to get some hands-on help? Too much going on here and forgot what your original question about the "041" Cam even was.

1. Search Pontiac resources
2. Search forums for previous similar info. posted.
3. Still cannot find info post question, get answer, and let the thread die.

This thread is over two years old Mike and you are still asking...

Do you mean that I should take this Vehicle to a Mechanic? Are you footing the Bill?

I have more than one Manual all ready and I do use them and more from the internet.

Are you paying for the Band with here, how much is it costing you?

Once I get past everything that keeps breaking on me, I will get to break in the "041" Cam and the Transmission finally. All I have experienced with this Cam is that the Vehicle has more on the top end speed, a lot more testing is required, once I get past the breakdowns and accidents!

In the past 10 years since I took over this Project, I have had to undo all my predecessors Drive Train work. He is only responsible for the Bodywork and dropping an untested Motor, Transmission and Rearend into this Car. I have with the Forum and My roommate, Built the wiring Harness, recut the driveshaft to work, built this Engine less the Bottom end, Remanufactured the entire Trans. and Heads. Had the Car painted, Remanufactured the Interior. This Car started on a rotisserie to begin with. First, we had to install front and rear glass, install the window motors, elect. door locks, Tilt Steering with Cruise control, Head liner with a custom panel under the T-Tops to keep the sun out, Trunk release, dual Batt in the Trunk with a sudbury switch, Elec. fuel pump with dual lines forward with a bypass hose, etc...

The former owner installed the Gear vendors as well, however none of the drive train was ever tested. He did not finish the brakes. He installed all the Hurb Adams suspension front and back. He also had someone install the Roll bar in the Cab and Trunk and around the motor. We had to complete the interior Dash, under Dash elec., R+R the hot water Heater System. We did the entire AC system piece by piece.

Then comes the 10 years of reading the Pontiac service Manuals, Articles, Online Info. that we gathered over the years, adding up to some 500 pages of hand written notes by me personally. Then there is the forum, PY forum, that got me through it all. So, no, I won't go to another forum on your bitter request, thank you, I will enjoy this Forum because I tried others and find this one to be true and honest, despite the ridicule that I have had persevere and endure for the last 3 years on this forum.

Last time I looked at the number of people reading this post, it was over 23,000, some people find this Thread informative, so let it go, build me up, I never put anybody down for trying.

P.S. This just touches the surface of the time and money that I have in this project. I could never afford a Mechanic to do this job and I enjoy learning besides. I have an undetermined self-learned degree in Auto-Mechanics, more than someone could go to school and get by attending two years at Vocational training for Auto Mechanics. If I were to add up the Hours I have learning, testing this Car, recording the info. to the computer and Text in a note book, I would have a four-year degree in Auto-Mechanics 101 and I have the Vehicle to prove it to the school.

By the way, while I was building this Car, I went to Atlantic Vocational for two years and received a degree in Auto-cad in both Architectural and Mechanical drafting. I had just finished school when I became self-taught in Mechanics 101 for the last 10 years. Also, my writing skills are improving as I write on the forum. This hobby keeps me alive feeling, for a disabled human being.

You seem to be helpful at times, don't forget to be humble, we all live in Gods world and none of us are better than the other.

10 years prior to this, I built two mobile homes, one had 7 rooms and the other home I built one year later. This one had had four rooms; I became a land lord and took homeless people off the streets and helped them get jobs and turn them into useful tax paying citizens again. For most people, they were someone in their past, but lost it somewhere along the way.

I also took in a Vet., who was mentally ill and supported him for 8 years out of my pocket, until we found out he was in war in Vietnam and the Gov. owed him for that, so they paid me to take care of him for 2 of the 8 years only. Later they took him away and put him in a home for his own sake. I was a homeless advocate for a while. I can't tell you how many people I took into my home, gave them a furnished room with a TV and all, no first last nor security, on their word, color, religion, sex life did not matter, all they had to do was try. When they quit trying and wanted to live off me, that was where the line in the sand was drawn and in 3 weeks of no money, they had to leave. I helped many people, mentally ill, on drugs, the hopeless and despaired, elderly, etc... in those 10 years and before that and even today. All I ask is to please give me hope, like I give others. From now on, you know me a little better, please consider giving me a break.

[Murf]

The thin shim is stock but the spacer isn’t. Does your car happen to have a Chevy transmission installed? That’s the only reason for a spacer I can think of.

Murf

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Murf

The thin shim is stock but the spacer isn’t. Does your car happen to have a Chevy transmission installed? That’s the only reason for a spacer I can think of.

Murf

I use the TH 400 BOP, the insides are similar and mine is "W" looking on top. Pontiac 428 ci HO Tri-power Carbs.

[78w72]

That is a flexplate, not a flywheel...

Didnt you drive the car after rebuilding the trans and didnt mention this new knocking noise? It started in the driveway while messing with timing when you mentioned a knocking noise... pinging is not knocking. If the flexplate was cracked you should have heard it on the first drive after the trans rebuild and cam timing changes. No?

The cam is already broken in when it was first started up after install... i hope. There is no more breaking in to do to it.

As for your defense of using 100% ATF in the engine... ATF does NOT have ANY anti wear additives that engine oil does and less detergents, ever heard of zinc/phos (ZDDP) ... bet the cam/lifters really loved pure ATF in the engine, regardless of how long it was ran, cam/lifters are under full force of the valve springs at all times & need oil protection.

Maybe the knocking sound is now a rod or main bearing, or piston slap like cliff mentioned from 7 backwards pistons?? Didnt you say the "ghost noise" was from back pressure caused by a dryer duct on the exhaust pipe that put pressure on the exhaust seats?? Post a vid of the engine running so members can hear the knocking noise.

On through the fog...

[steve25]

So did a inspection of the flexplate find a crack?

[steve25]

With the rear of Chevy block having a top center bell housing bolt and a pyramid shape it would be extremely hard to mistake it for a B.O.P trans!