[Baron Von Zeppelin]

There is a car for sale on BaT currently , with some document issues.
Currently labeled as a GTO.
Does not have a 2 in Box 38 of BHC
Boxes 74 75 76 77 are goofy also.

A google of VIN reveals prior sales as a LeMans.
Red flags everywhere.

I think boxes 75 and 76 have definitely been "adjusted" (YS) - incorrectly.
Cannot make heads or tails from boxes 74 and 77

Not well versed on LeMans or 3spd cars , or 6 cylinder cars.
But think Box 74 should be a 3 (2 if Auto)
Box 77 either S or X (J if Auto)

And could this have been a 6 cylinder engine since 326 2 bbl is not highlighted ?

[johnta1]

Column 77 has tranny code -J or T for automatic.
Which neither of them look like on BHC?

Column 71 should have the rear end code. But whatever it is on BHC I don't know. 'A' ? 'O' ? '4' ? None of those are on there.

Column 74 would be for Tranny style. 2 for automatic; 3 for 3 speed manual; 4 for 4 speed. But I can't tell what it is , but don't think it looks like any of those.

Another thing is the cowl tag shows cordova top but they don't mention that.

A 6 cyl should have a 6 at beginning of the 6 digits of the VIN?
So probably a 326?
3.08 rear gear?
3 speed manual?


White wall tires.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Its very strange , in a very retarded way.
The first alteration they should have done was add a 2 in box 38.
They evidently had no idea what they were doing in box 74 through 77 , at all.

Appears both documents are altered / reprints.

Car is so modified it would probably have gone unnoticed if they would have just got box 38 in order.
And used WT instead of YS.

I think the current seller was taken for a ride.
The recreated leather interior is quite impressive and had to be expensive.
Doubt he would have gone to that length if he knew it was a clone though.



https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...-125/#comments

[242177P]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

I think the current seller was taken for a ride.

Agree. "... previously wore 400-4 stickers that were removed under current ownership". Current owner could not have felt good after learning he had been duped on it having a 400 - and it's just the tip of this iceberg. Not coughing up for a PHS of his own was an expensive mistake.

[Chris65LeMans]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

A google of VIN reveals prior sales as a LeMans.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1965-pontiac-gto-125/

Note that '64s and '65s would be titled as a LeMans with the GTO option package. This car has been modified enough (and not even in a good way), that I'm not sure there's much value difference.

What I want to know is - what's going on with the rear suspension? Coilovers and some sort of modified geometry?

[Cardo]

That car looks like a whole lot of lipstick on a pig. I feel bad for the current owner... looks like he might have been duped.

[Skip Fix]

My 65 is a 3 speed GTO I can look at my PHS tonight.

[TB1]

This is the PHS documentation for my 65 LeMans original 6cyl 3 speed car, hopefully of some assistance.
Trevor

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Thanks TB1
Another thing that was suspicious was how the order sheet header has a printed bold font reading 1965 LeMans , like yours.
All the GTO order sheets from PHS have Tempest - GTO hand scribbled
or Tempest / GTO hand scribbled in that header.

Your box 77 having a 4 Code is surprising.
But admit I have never really done any research on a Tempest or LeMans before.

I think the subject car "should" come back as 326 2bbl with 3spd Synchro.
The owner has requested his own PHS packet and they say they will post it if it arrives before end of auction.

A modified 65 GTO versus a modified 65 LeMans is really the same physical car , but the GTO status would still be an added value.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

They uploaded the new REAL documents for the LeMans.
326 2bbl Automatic
And deleted the fake docs.
Both previous docs were altered reprints.

Guess us GTO guys are lacking some codes for box 77 concerning 6cyl and 326 cars.
This 326 Auto has Code O in Box 77 (before and after)

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

The fake docs I linked to in the beginning - are still working links.

Have actually been very surprised the past couple decades that we haven't encountered far more faked BHC's , Order Sheets, and Invoices.
Can only think of about a handful of instances that have been exposed.

Each of those have been distinguishable by the forgers lack of attention to detail points.
Probably all of those would have gotten passed off another time or two if just done more correctly.
Be Careful out there