[petes67bird]

Originally Posted by b-man

A friend of mine built a 421 for me, a talented amateur builder who’s built dozens of engines for his friends and fellow club members.

He broke in the cam on his run stand and ran it for about an hour total.

I installed it in my car, never touching the distributor. After several hundred miles I put a timing light on it even though it was running strong and drove great. The initial timing was 5 degrees which was likely the stock setting. I’m sure my friend was being cautious and didn’t try to maximize the timing during the crucial initial break in.

I bumped the timing to 12 initial, added to the 23 degrees of mechanical advance built into the distributor I have 35 degrees total now.

So I’m sure the shop set your timing well enough to drive and enjoy your car just like my friend did for me, but when circumstances are optimal check and adjust as needed.

I do understand. I guess my thinking is this. Its too cold here to do timing. The carb needs to come off for repair due to a leak. The intake needs to come off the be cleaned and painted at the least. I am almost to the heads at this point.

My thought is I will see gains regardless if I replace the heads, intake and carb, those are all net positive. Even fully tuned current build vs fully tunes new heads/intake/carb, the new setup will be better. I can then in the spring dial it in at a different shop. Otherwise I need to wait till it's warmer, and if it was in fact set properly, I won't tear into the motor until the following winter.

[chiphead]

The 455 in a similar weight car should feel faster. There is a BIG drop from 1-2 gear in a 2004R. 1st is 2.74 but second is 1.57. If the transmission isn't holding first very long, it's going to bog if it goes into 2nd too early. If the engine tuning is way off, it's not going to come up on the converter properly as you mash the gas. That's why we keep asking if it will turn the tires over from a stop.

Since you're new to Pontiac, you may not realize what you've got. A drivetrain like yours should blow the tires off from a stop. 2-1 downshifts at 20 MPH should break the tires loose. It should scare you a little. The fact that it doesn't points to something seriously off. I bet it's a combination of timing, carb tuning, camshaft installation and transmission settings. Timing just a few degrees off will have a huge impact on idle quality and throttle response.. Having the Q-jet carb secondary air door open too fast will produce a huge bog when going to WOT. Little things make a big difference.

Some light reading on 455s and cam selection: https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...=550405&page=2

[Quad]

Originally Posted by ta man

How much power do you want? This may get expensive quickly especially with someone else doing all the work. I would spend some time with what you have to learn what is wrong..just costs time but a great learning experience. This book may help.

How to Rebuild High Performance Pontiac V-8's Re-Issue is available on the BOP Engineering site. Jim Hand got his 4000lb wagon to low 11's with iron heads. Cliff's QJet book is available there also.

https://www.bopengineering.com/books.shtml

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by petes67bird

My thought is I will see gains regardless if I replace the heads, intake and carb, those are all net positive. Even fully tuned current build vs fully tunes new heads/intake/carb, the new setup will be better. I can then in the spring dial it in at a different shop. Otherwise I need to wait till it's warmer, and if it was in fact set properly, I won't tear into the motor until the following winter.

With the RA manifolds and RA 4 cam it would have roughly 50 HP more to tap into at some point switching to aluminum heads. But it could run about the same until you find whatever is holding the engine back.

We had a bad TQ converter once that we kept building more engine in front of it and it just kept running the same ET. Eventually we had enough engine it pushed completely thru the converter. We changed the converter and gained 10 mph the next weekend. You never know, sometimes more power makes the problem worse, and easier to find.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by Quad

How to Rebuild High Performance Pontiac V-8's Re-Issue is available on the BOP Engineering site. Jim Hand got his 4000lb wagon to low 11's with iron heads. Cliff's QJet book is available there also.

https://www.bopengineering.com/books.shtml

Jim Hand had his ported iron head combo dialed in. I raced him a couple times down at Kansas City with some street cars. A few years after he wrote his book he tried a set of stock round port E heads and his car went slower, even though the E heads had more peak flow.

[pont3]

Originally Posted by petes67bird

I completely understand, I have been told to check the timing so many times already. Unfortunately beyond my control, I cannot check the timing right now. Its been negative 3 degrees outside and I have an attached garage so that limits my options with salt on the roads, which was why I was looking at other options. Typically over the winter, is when I tear into things and do upgrades. I didnt think about the timing being an issue since I paid a reputable shop to do it for me so I assumed it has to be something else.

Many here are not simply saying to advance your timing, they are saying to find out how quickly the advance occurs as you rev the engine. If you are at all familiar with distributors, you know that under the rotor there are fly weights and springs. Sounds like you've been around long enough to know what a "curve" kit is. So if it were me, that is where I would start.

If you are using the same carb and distributor from the engine prior to the rebuild, they BOTH need to be recalibrated to reflect your new engine combo.

Do some experimentation with different springs.

[petes67bird]

It's supposed to be 43 on Sunday! I will check timing then and report back, probably will be the warmest day for the next few months. Thanks to everyone for the help.

[mrennie]

Just keep in mind what Bman and others mentioned about your balancer...if the outer ring has slipped (and this happens), you could end up getting the timing numbers that you expect but in reality are nowhere near close. This is why "degreeing your balancer" may be required.

One time I bought a new balancer and when I degreed it, timing was 8* advanced when the balancer was at 0*. This would have caused pinging and detonation if I has set timing at 12* initial (would have been 20* actual). Imagine the scenario where this is reversed, if the ring was too much the other way, 12* would actually be 4*. Engine would start and run fine but would be lazzzzzzyyyy.

[petes67bird]

Originally Posted by mrennie

Just keep in mind what Bman and others mentioned about your balancer...if the outer ring has slipped (and this happens), you could end up getting the timing numbers that you expect but in reality are nowhere near close. This is why "degreeing your balancer" may be required.

One time I bought a new balancer and when I degreed it, timing was 8* advanced when the balancer was at 0*. This would have caused pinging and detonation if I has set timing at 12* initial (would have been 20* actual). Imagine the scenario where this is reversed, if the ring was too much the other way, 12* would actually be 4*. Engine would start and run fine but would be lazzzzzzyyyy.

Just found out cam was not degreed last night.I think he did this. He said he did not use the degree wheel. He used the timing marks at zero to line up on the timing cover and harmonic balancer. Then checkedthat it was at top dead center to ensure the balancer mark is correct. Lined up the dots straight and .that was it.

I really don't want to remove everything out of my car again, I'm a bit irritated right now. I wish there was someone near ne who can assist me in doing this to make sure it's done right.

[petes67bird]

Originally Posted by pont3

Many here are not simply saying to advance your timing, they are saying to find out how quickly the advance occurs as you rev the engine. If you are at all familiar with distributors, you know that under the rotor there are fly weights and springs. Sounds like you've been around long enough to know what a "curve" kit is. So if it were me, that is where I would start.

If you are using the same carb and distributor from the engine prior to the rebuild, they BOTH need to be recalibrated to reflect your new engine combo.

Do some experimentation with different springs.

These were purchased with the specs provided to the builders of each part for my new setup.

[Stan Weiss]

JMO Can the cam be not degree properly yes. BUT with 462 ci that is cranking around 160 psi. If it can not spin the tire and feels lazy down low there are other bigger problems that where the cam phasing is.

Stan

[johnta1]

I would wonder about the tranny?
Is it a lockup tranny? (never used that one)


It may be in some other gear than 1st?


In park does it respond to throttle good?

[petes67bird]

Originally Posted by johnta1

I would wonder about the tranny?
Is it a lockup tranny? (never used that one)


It may be in some other gear than 1st?


In park does it respond to throttle good?

Non lockup. Functions normal in park. I should know more after tomorrow if I can get outside for timing and a quick drive by a friend for their opinion.

[steve25]

But note that what’s not mentioned in post 83 is that those low 11 runs where with the 6X heads he ported up to 250 or there about’s.

[Steve C.]

Side topic: I can highly recommend the Bowtie Overdrives TV and Throttle Cable SYSTEMS. That is what we used on my 200- 4R

I run a non-lock up converter. Under a steady state cruise speed on the open highway the converter has about a 200 rpm slippage, very acceptable in my opinion.
With my 27.7" diameter rear tire and 3.73 gears it is about 2300 rpm at 70 mph.



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