[keith k]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Find a 70 TA with an earlier body build date - and let me know about that.

March/April body dates is about as early as we ever see in the past 20 years of internet sharing.
These 2 are 01A

They are pre-production = pilot , to me.
On these 2 TA's

Of the 435 '70 T/As in my "database"....
The subject of this post is the earliest one I have seen.
There are about 6-8 more that were built sometime later in January (all from Norwood). Then 12-14 that were built in Feb (ranged because I have the trim tag build date for only about 2/3 of them ... just the VIN for the rest). Then the numbers start going up much faster in March.

I have no Van Nuys cars noted that were built before March 1970 (but that certainly doesn't mean there weren't any ... )

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

Has anyone come across (or heard of) this car?

- I just came across it now - check out the build date on the cowl tag!!

1970 Camaro #001

Interesting that the trim tag on that one says "PILOT"

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Very very excellent info Keith K !

These two 01A cars are the only ones I had ever heard of before March , before.
Do you have any others that are consecutive VIN ?

My browser doesn't work well with Mecum website pics.
I clicked Jonny's link before , and again now , but still can't get a picture of it's trim tag on the Camaro.
Pilot branding is surely unique.
That car was not intended for resale or ever titled.
The 6cyl VIN was another issue a lot of people didn't particularly like about it.

Some of the "Pontiac Pilots" have had Pilot printing on the wire loom wraps.
But don't think I have seen one with Pilot on trim tag.

[cpu]

Here's the photo of the 1970 Camaro offered by Mecum in 2013 with VIN 123870N500001 for which Jonny posted a link

[Transamric]

My info likely matches Keith's fairly closely. But FWIW;....
Here's the earliest tag dated TA's from Nor. I have.
100355 01C
100891 01C
100894 01C
101130 01C

The vast majority of early production Firebirds do appear to have been base models and Esprits. And definitely more early Formulas than TA's.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Very cool Ric. More great data.
Thankyou

Car N100355 should be 01A - instead of 01C
That is the eBay car.

Paul K is thinking his brothers TA is N100879
Looks like it will probably be in the 01C category too.

[keith k]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Very very excellent info Keith K !

These two 01A cars are the only ones I had ever heard of before March , before.
Do you have any others that are consecutive VIN ?

No others I have noted are consecutive VINs. But since I've only got a little over 10% of production ... that probably doesn't mean much.

Originally Posted by Transamric

My info likely matches Keith's fairly closely. But FWIW;....
Here's the earliest tag dated TA's from Nor. I have.
100355 01C
100891 01C
100894 01C
101130 01C

The vast majority of early production Firebirds do appear to have been base models and Esprits. And definitely more early Formulas than TA's.

I think you have a bigger list than I do Ric
I did not have 00894, but had the other three.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Would be interesting to see or know if those other January cars are Multi-Invoice/discount cars.
And what the earliest invoice dates to dealers on all of the Jan and Feb built cars.

Really cool that Transamric and Keith K have knowledge and data on those.
I've been fiddling with them since mid 80s and never heard or read of any so early before.
03x was like ,,, oh that's an early bloomer.

Hoping Paul really has that chicago show car with a discount.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

The eBay car has been sold . Congrats to the new owner.

This listing was ended by the seller on Tue, Jan 7 at 2:31 PM because the item was sold.

[RLEngland]

Are you tracking on N100942? It's 01C. This is my friends TA. Metal tail panel. I have 381 including a few Formulas and all the RAIVs in my spread sheet.

[RLEngland]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

All of it is interesting to me .
I'm not from Missouri , but I have to see the oddballers .

Just to note , we can't totally judge a 70 TA by its VIN
They only built 3196 , but the VINs don't run from 100001 to 103196.
Was just looking at an 03A TA and it's VIN is N107375
And 03A has always been considered ultra early for 70 TA
I'm just sticking with Norwood cars for this investigation - I know Van Nuys built some also.

The wildest thing besides the body dates on these two 01A cars ,
other than their body dates ,
Is they are sequential VIN - AND - same options / colors.

But that doesn't make them TA #354 and #355 out of 3196 - or out of however many TA's were built in Norwood. fwiw

I'd like to know if the VIN sequence clicked up at each plant (Van Nuys and Norwood) separately, or if they were assigned to each plant in batches. I've got 380 VINs documented from both plants and none have the same last 6 digits. Anyone every see the same last 6 digits on a Van Nuys and Norwood car for the model year 1970? I'm from Missouri.

[johnta1]

The 2 plants have their own VIN sequence. Could/would be a L100001 and a N100001.
The VIN's are also for all the Birds at that plant, not just TA or Formula or whatever. One could be a plain Bird next one a TA then plain Bird or Formula or whatever.
2 in sequence together would be OK I'd think, but a lot in sequence would be problematic, I'd think?
A lot of 'stuff' to build one right after the other and another etc?
(takes longer time to do all at once, slowing line down)

PS. I think I have some but not sure what year?
May take awhile to find them.

[Transamric]

Originally Posted by RLEngland

Are you tracking on N100942? It's 01C. This is my friends TA. Metal tail panel. I have 381 including a few Formulas and all the RAIVs in my spread sheet.

I am now! FWIW, I'm at 1154 1970's recorded. And not single repeated VIN number from both plants. Hard to believe that Pontiac did that with F bodies as they did with A bodies. At 1154, you'd think I'd have at least one duplicate number.

[RLEngland]

Here's the PHS for N100942. Build date 01C. So the 997 means internal use? Meaning the dealer held onto it for awhile as a promotion car? Must have sold to a Sailor or Marine at Annapolis, MD and they brought it to San Diego. It spent most of it's life here in SD with my friend.

[RLEngland]

Originally Posted by Transamric

I am now! FWIW, I'm at 1154 1970's recorded. And not single repeated VIN number from both plants. Hard to believe that Pontiac did that with F bodies as they did with A bodies. At 1154, you'd think I'd have at least one duplicate number.

Wow! That's a lot. How many are T/As? So you see the logic in my question, especially since you have a larger sample. I need to go hang out with the PHS folks and find a duplicate.

[RLEngland]

Originally Posted by johnta1

The 2 plants have their own VIN sequence. Could/would be a L100001 and a N100001.
The VIN's are also for all the Birds at that plant, not just TA or Formula or whatever. One could be a plain Bird next one a TA then plain Bird or Formula or whatever.
2 in sequence together would be OK I'd think, but a lot in sequence would be problematic, I'd think?
A lot of 'stuff' to build one right after the other and another etc?
(takes longer time to do all at once, slowing line down)

PS. I think I have some but not sure what year?
May take awhile to find them.

That makes sense. If I had money to burn, I would submit two of the same VINs to PHS and see what I get back. I'd like to hang out with them for a week looking at the files. John, thanks for what you do. I really enjoy your website.

[johnta1]

Glad you like my site!

So the 997 means internal use? Meaning the dealer held onto it for awhile as a promotion car?

Usually a Zone type area or some specific use.
It would also mean their would be another PHS for it. The earlier one to this PHS. That one may have what the 997 was.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by johnta1

The 2 plants have their own VIN sequence. Could/would be a L100001 and a N100001.
The VIN's are also for all the Birds at that plant, not just TA or Formula or whatever. One could be a plain Bird next one a TA then plain Bird or Formula or whatever.
2 in sequence together would be OK I'd think, but a lot in sequence would be problematic, I'd think?
A lot of 'stuff' to build one right after the other and another etc?
(takes longer time to do all at once, slowing line down)

This is correct.

a) - yes - there is a L100001 and a N100001. Similarly there would be a L123456 and a N123456, counting up independently at each plant to end of production.

b) - You are correct about option content. Great care is taken to make sure you don't have too many high content vehicles in row and overload the downstream assembly line workers. As such I would be surprised to see two T/As in a row, but it could happen, albeit not often. Or maybe four speed followed by an auto, for example. Or T top followed by no T top.

But you have to be careful. If it brings attention to itself the guys WILL start counting, and WILL write up a shop grievance.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by RLEngland

That makes sense. If I had money to burn, I would submit two of the same VINs to PHS and see what I get back.

I've done this (accidentally).

I was researching a GTO VIN 237375P115814 and it came back as "not a GTO".

After some time I realized that PHS mistakenly sent me the packet for 237375Z115814. Fremont vs Pontiac final assembly.

Took me about a year to figure out what was wrong, and why none of the option content made sense.

I contacted PHS and they made it right, without additional cost.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by RLEngland

I need to go hang out with the PHS folks and find a duplicate.

Originally Posted by RLEngland

I'd like to hang out with them for a week looking at the files.

There's not a lot to see.

Just going through punch cards: one, by one, by one, by one, by one....

And - they are filed in INVOICE order, not VIN order. Recall these were financial documents originally (not saved as a boon to future historians).

K

(this was a couple locations ago, when they were in Sterling Heights. Might look different now).

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by RLEngland

Here's the PHS for N100942. Build date 01C. So the 997 means internal use? Meaning the dealer held onto it for awhile as a promotion car?.

I think we are getting into uncharted waters now.

Notice that your car #942 is colored/optioned identical to car #355 - 01A
Paul K says his car #354 - 01A is also identical colors/options.
They are beginning to resemble the first-fruit "Pattern Judge" scenario of Jan/Feb 1969
3 ultra early cars all built the same way.
Equipped - not stripped .

Your invoice of March 16 is when Marbert Motors got the car.
Paul's warranty plan shows his sold on March 14

997 historically has been the exit billing code for cars that had seen some type of use.
Most common use for suffix code 997 overall.

991 , 992 , 993 have been the common exit billing codes for cars that were stored inventory at various zone storage lots.
Un-Used / New .
The 1969 Pattern Judges that were stored at zone lots until the planned release in early Feb -
those all used the 991 992 993 ......

Car #942 has the same discount code 30 in lower left ledger,
and .00 HoldBack is another indicator of discounted vehicle.
But it doesn't spell it out like #355 invoice.

Also check out the similarity of the order numbers on them
01004 & 03004
69 Pattern Judges had coded order numbers also , not typical generic order numbers.

There may end up being more to this story if we get more invoices on these Jan built cars.
It is eyebrow raising / suspicious