[Joe-Touring]

https://www.thedrive.com/news/hot-ro...s-to-win-a-bet

Interesting article. Perhaps some love for the lesser appreciated Poncho engines? Sounds like he’s interested in selling the intakes. I wonder how the printed parts hold up to years of fuel vapor, heat and vibration?

[Sirrotica]

Since the parts inside a Q Jet carb are made of plastic as well as many parts inside fuel tanks, I see no reason why there would be any concern over using it as an intake manifold. Many carb spacers sold by the performance aftermarket are also made from polymers. LS engines already use a plastic intake, but it's running dry because the fuel is injected downstream.

As long as the correct polymers were used in printing (it seems that he has chosen someone very familiar with this process) it would be of little concern.

464 HP is better than the old 303 T/A engines that were also low deck blocks first topped first with tunnel port heads, then later on, RA IV heads after it was determined that the tunnel port head had too much cross sectional area, along with the pushrod tubes disrupting the fuel air charge.

I can't remember what the 301 based engines Tom S had built dynoed at, surely he'll comment, but they ended up I believe about 383 CI, if I remember correctly.

[tom s]

I’m told that engine was bigger than 301.Tom

[tom s]

The other article I saw had KRE heads on the engine.One of my friends worked at Edelbrock and found out 3D printed intakes had to be dry to live.The wet ones would eventually leak and would destroy the intake when they went total lean from the air leaks.FWIW,Tom

[Don Keefe]

I had a minor part in the project, mostly as an advisor and part supplier. Ted told me the crank was a stock three-inch stroke 301 that was converted to internal balance. I was surprised at the torque output, it's a badass little engine to be sure. I'm very excited to see more builds from The Tiger Cub initiative. These guys are true innovators.

[78w72]

Been following that intake design and other mods guys are doing to the 301 & 301T engines on a FB group dedicated to the odd ball Potiac engines. Some are building strokers out of the 301 block and one of the intakes being made allows for traditional Pontiac heads to be used, one of the biggest power limiters was the 301 heads. Cool stuff they are doing with the little 301's.

Theres another guy thats been racing 301T cars for a couple decades in a NHRA stock class with rules on what can be done to the engine, his car has been in the low 12's for quite awhile. And another heavily mod'd 301T with EFI that just broke into the 11's

My 1981 TTA that was 99% stock got into the mid 14's... not "fast" by any means but a full 2 seconds off the best factory reported times with a professional driver and faster than the 78-79 W72 400 TA's. Just basic stuff like catalytic converter deleted and boost up to the designed 9psi.

The 301's have got a bad rep for a long time, but now they are getting some modern updates and making impressive power.

[tom s]

Don,the one they did with KREs,what did they do for a head gasket?When I did my 2 stroker 301s there was not a hybred head gasket at that time.We welded a little bridge to combat the isuue.Tom

[srmmmm]

Originally Posted by Don Keefe

I had a minor part in the project, mostly as an advisor and part supplier. Ted told me the crank was a stock three-inch stroke 301 that was converted to internal balance. I was surprised at the torque output, it's a badass little engine to be sure. I'm very excited to see more builds from The Tiger Cub initiative. These guys are true innovators.

My automotive engineering professor at General Motors Institute was Jim Lyons, the man who led the Turbo 301 development team at PMD later on. The factory crankshaft would bend or crack at 280 horsepower, and there were no internal counterweights on it. It would be impossible to make the engine internally balanced without a custom crankshaft. What Pontiac was able to determine was that the bearing loads from combustion were greater than the bearing loads from the lack of counterweights. That's why they were able to use the light crankshaft I doubt the turbo version connecting rods would even be stout enough for those torque numbers.

[Joe-Touring]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

As long as the correct polymers were used in printing (it seems that he has chosen someone very familiar with this process) it would be of little concern.

That would be my thought as well. Im see a lot of 3d printed pieces at work, amazing stuff. There are MANY different filament materials to choose from, each with different properties.

Originally Posted by tom s

The other article I saw had KRE heads on the engine.One of my friends worked at Edelbrock and found out 3D printed intakes had to be dry to live.The wet ones would eventually leak and would destroy the intake when they went total lean from the air leaks.FWIW,Tom

I was a bit disappointed by the lack of details and specifications stated in the article. Feel like they could have provided bore+stroke, heads, etc.

Makes sense to me, the parts are printed in layers, many locations for a split to develop. 3d printing tech is advancing rapidly, possibly someone figured out how to make a wet manifold live?

[Joe-Touring]

Originally Posted by Don Keefe

I had a minor part in the project, mostly as an advisor and part supplier. Ted told me the crank was a stock three-inch stroke 301 that was converted to internal balance. I was surprised at the torque output, it's a badass little engine to be sure. I'm very excited to see more builds from The Tiger Cub initiative. These guys are true innovators.

Very cool! This forum never ceases to amaze me with the amount of users involved in high end builds.

Very interesting, you hear a lot about how the 301 cranks aren’t a great piece from the factory, missing counterweights and all. That one is getting it done!

[misterp266]

TTA Performance
https://www.facebook.com/TTAPerformace

[78w72]

Originally Posted by srmmmm

My automotive engineering professor at General Motors Institute was Jim Lyons, the man who led the Turbo 301 development team at PMD later on. The factory crankshaft would bend or crack at 280 horsepower, and there were no internal counterweights on it. It would be impossible to make the engine internally balanced without a custom crankshaft. What Pontiac was able to determine was that the bearing loads from combustion were greater than the bearing loads from the lack of counterweights. That's why they were able to use the light crankshaft I doubt the turbo version connecting rods would even be stout enough for those torque numbers.

280hp? Was that the non turbo crank maybe? The 301T cranks were different and had filleted (?) journals where the metal kind of rolled or blended into the body of the crank vs the sharp blunt ends of standard 301 cranks, made them a lot stronger. The guys making 350+hp on stock cranks & rods arent bending or cracking 301T cranks. The rods are the same basic design as other larger Pontiacs so should be able to handle higher torque, but obviously better to use better rods at that poser lever.

[tom s]

Both of my builds had complete details on this site.Tom

[Squidward]

Originally Posted by 78w72

Theres another guy thats been racing 301T cars for a couple decades in a NHRA stock class with rules on what can be done to the engine, his car has been in the low 12's for quite awhile. And another heavily mod'd 301T with EFI that just broke into the 11's

I remember getting knocked out of a race at Pontiac Heaven by a 301 turbo'd T/A in the 12's. Rick Unterish, I believe. Nice guy.

Fun stuff.

[78w72]

Yep..Ricks been doing this a long time, hes working on a new build now that will be much faster. TTA broke into 11's on what I think is a standard 301T set up, 301t heads & bottom end. Pretty impressive for these "boat anchors."

[SGR-Performance]

Hi Folks,

I am the builder of the engine in the drive article. I cannot take complete credit as this was input from a ton of folks that we took and compiled everything into the "Mighty Mule" as we call it. The author of the drive article did not ask specific questions around the build but more so around the 3D printed parts. To answer some of the questions that I saw in this thread. This is a 1980 301T block 4.00 bore x 3.00 stroke. From there the factory crank was re-worked for internal balance vice external balance, the connecting rods are light weight forged 6.200 with 4.00 forged pop up SBC pistons drastically reducing the bob weight. Total 301ci. The block is filled to about 2 inches below the deck. main studs with a custom crank scraper. The brain child of Performance Optimized Systems they helped us with the short block as we were looking to take the original 380hp "OG Mule" to even higher levels. We tested 2 sets of heads a ported set of 301 01 heads that Reher Morrison did for us years ago, and a set of reworked 13 heads. Compression is right around 10.5 - 10.6. The intakes we tested are our upcoming Tiger Cub I (siamese port) and the Tiger Cub II FI. and a 750 carb. that is just a quick brain dump. let me know of any other questions.

[SGR-Performance]

I don't think TTA Performance has broken 11's yet they got close. A gent Bill Reusing I think it is has with a 301/383 Stroker combo and Rick Unterseh has reportedly gone high 11's or really low 12's with his 301T. Our next goal for the Mighty Mule is to get it into a chassis and some track time!

[AZDragracer]

I've been in the low 12s for decades with my 301T. I put a new 301t in my car over a year ago, but with my son passing away and my wife and I having to raise our granddaughter, the race cars have been on hold. I will try to replace the headgaskets on it soon and go back to the Felpro gaskets after trying the new fangled 301 headgaskets that just didn't last on my 301, not even 6 months. The couple of 1/8th mile passes I made with the new motor were MUCH FASTER in the incrementals than the 12.14 pass was. The 301t with EFI has NOT gone in the 11s as of yet.

[AZDragracer]

Originally Posted by 78w72

TTA broke into 11's on what I think is a standard 301T set up, 301t heads & bottom end. Pretty impressive for these "boat anchors."

His 301 is FAR FROM STOCK.

Ported heads
possibly a custom intake
Stage 5 turbo
Roller Cam ( big sucker too)
Flat top pistons, Stock is dished
3.42 gears
overdrive trans, with low first gear
2800-3000 rpm converter
Lightened the car considerably

Mine is closer to stock
STOCK Unported heads
STOCK unported intake
STOCK turbo (but balanced)
STOCK lift hydraulic flat tappet cam
dished pistons
4.10 gears
th350 stock gearing
3000-3500 rpm converter
3850 lbs with me in it
th

[78w72]

Originally Posted by AZDragracer

His 301 is FAR FROM STOCK.

Ported heads
possibly a custom intake
Stage 5 turbo
Roller Cam ( big sucker too)
Flat top pistons, Stock is dished
3.42 gears
overdrive trans, with low first gear
2800-3000 rpm converter
Lightened the car considerably

Mine is closer to stock
STOCK Unported heads
STOCK unported intake
STOCK turbo (but balanced)
STOCK lift hydraulic flat tappet cam
dished pistons
4.10 gears
th350 stock gearing
3000-3500 rpm converter
3850 lbs with me in it
th

Yes it's far from stock... yours is amazing too with stock class rules.

I was mistaken on tta's recent post with new best times... it was a 12.080, about as close to 11 as you can get. He said track conditions werent very good and next time leaving on more boost should break 11's... the 301 in the article isnt stock, but regardless thats very fast and making awesome power for a 301.