[gtorich]

To the few who know about my motor issues.............looked at this today and trying to figure out what might have happened.

Not sure if the old lifters did this or the new lifters did this.

The old lifters were 857 comp / prw 1.65 roller rockers.

New stuff from 2 yrs ago JLI-21120 lifters /1.65 harland sharp 1.65 rockers.

Valley pan is 64-67 type...according to Dave at SD these pans need to be clearance on the pass side, i have 2 dents on p/s and 4 dents on d/s which he says need to work on.

Anyone else have similar issues and the fix for this.

I did have a tomahawk pan i bought from Ace 20 some yrs ago, that thing wouldnt fit no matter what, so i just used the stock one.

Confusing part for me is almost every roller lifter butler has on their site says wont fit using a stock pan, BUT yet doing a search on forum seems most are not having any issues with the stock pan.

If it help any im running the old faithful cam 236/242 which is now at Bullet cams getting fixed from the last shop i used, i know my lift is in the 620 range or so.

So any recommendations on which roller lifters might work with the cam i have..........the last set was $800 and made it two yrs, cant afford another 2 or 3 sets to figure this out.

Sorry for the confusion like so many of my posts are.

Rich

[gtorich]

If it helps any, i cant find any damage on the rocker links, paint missing or dents

Rich

[gtorich]

Ok, looked it up to be more accurate
Lobe lift Int .380 X 1.62 =.627....Ext .383X1.65 =6.32
I suppose i can replace the 1.65 with 1.50 to lower that.

Other option since i have my cam at bullet, i assume they can make that cam into something else, any ideas on anything that may help.

Rich

[JLMounce]

When I first did the top-end on my engine back in 2015, like you I tried using the factory pan. I installed it dry and rotated the engine over several times to create any witness marks. I had a couple, so I used a ballpeen hammer to clearance those areas. I figured based off of that and the addition of a gasket I was going to be in the clear.

Almost immediately I had leaks all over from the valley pan. No real clattering that I was hearing, but the engine was noisy anyhow. I ended up replacing the factory piece with the tomahawk valley pan. I tried a couple times on my end to get that to seal up, but had trouble with it weeping oil out of the back on top of the rear ledge of the block near the distributor.

I think it may have been Steve C that had a write up, that I followed on getting valley pans to seal that finally squared me away.

I used a gasket as well, but I believe his instructions were to only use RTV.

Use only enough RTV to evenly coat the sealing surfaces, without creating a lot of bulge that may find it's way into the engine.
Use RTV on the under side of the stud bolts in the center of the pan.
With the RTV still wet, place the pan on valley and make sure it's not hanging up on the ledges found on some heads.
With only mild pressure on the pan, let it sit and cure for 24 hours.
Once the RTV has cured, tighten down the pan to spec. It's only 42 inch pounds, so it's not a lot of force. Over-tightening this will cause leaks as the pan is pulled out of square with the block.

That's what worked for me and after I started using that method, I never had leaks from that part of the engine again.

In regards to what lifter is going to be the best for you, since you have the engine apart and can measure, I'd follow what Butler is providing here and purchase the lifter with the oil band height that best matches your block.

https://butlerperformance.com/n-1349...formation.html

I believe they state that the Comp Evolution lifter has the best oil band height for most applications.

I ran the non-update Morel lifters (Lunati brand) for about 8 years and although they were noisy, they didn't give me any reliability or performance issues. I'm running the short travel version of the Johnson lifters you have currently and so far they are working out great. They are quite, even with a .399" lobe lift cam and they easily handle my engine's 6000rpm shift point. I haven't had any hint of valve float from them. They are set up with HS 1.5:1 rockers and PAC 1903 valve springs.

[steve25]

I got to put some thought into this since I have used the 857 lifters with no issues , along with that same valley pan, but what makes no sense to me is that only have 2 dents on one side and not 4 .

Do you know how much valve spring seat pressure you had?

[gtorich]

Jason, thanks for the info, i will email you this week.

Steve25, i tried looking it up on SD site, no info there, but they are the KRE heads set up for 290-295 cfm, as usual i cant find any paper work on these, bought them in 2010.

Im not sure what lifters out of the two i mentioned did this, the 857 were in there first, and two years ago the shop put in the johnsons i bought.........maybe they didnt see this while putting 3 tubes of Right Stuff down on the valley pan, im sure i got that thing bent all out of shape taking it off.

[AG]

Are your Johnson lifters ruined or are they still usable? Any Pics?

[gtorich]

Originally Posted by AG

Are your Johnson lifters ruined or are they still usable? Any Pics?

That is a great question, i can not get a finger nail or anything to catch on the rollers, they just have lines in them, im assuming from dirt or whatever.

Have pics, but i think the flash makes them look worse than they are, i did try using wd-40 and a scotch pad, didnt rub hard but the lines are there.

Rich

[gtorich]

Steve did some checking around, about the only think i could find.

"...in most applications we use the Crane 99893 valve spring, installed at 1.790-1.810", I set the intakes on the tighter side of the tolerance, I test all the springs and always put the ones with the higher pressures on the intake valves, since the intake valves weigh more and also have the momentum of the charge pushing on the back side of the valve while the exhaust valve if anything has pressure pushing or drawing it closed and the valve is lighter. On my digital InterComp spring tester the seat pressures on a new set of springs will range from 147-157lbs typically @ 1.800" and 380-390lbs @ 1.200" open pressure."
Posted by Dave Bisschop

LOL, when i first started in the 2007 build, i had the crower 60919 cam in the car, no issues except the usual oil problems ive been having, thought maybe better go to roller, i know its more expensive but i was worried about the ft breaking on me, figured this would only be a grand or two more...........flash to today, that sounds like pocket change with all the issues ive been having, but i will get this fixed one way or the other.

[Dragncar]

You are having more than your fair share of problems.
Might want to find another machine shop/engine builder.'
I have to give you credit for sticking thought it all.
At least there is not a LS under your hood.

[johnta1]

I suppose i can replace the 1.65 with 1.50 to lower that.

Rocker arm ratio won't affect the 'denting' problem.
The problem is the roller height is too tall. Measure each roller to see which ones are taller.

The valley pan is self clearanced now, maybe tap a little more clearance with hammer.

What is wrong with the rollers right now?
Just worried about the dents? Or are they trashed?

[78w72]

The tomahawk P takes some finessing & grinding around where the intake touches it, there are sections notched on the felpro gaskets that show the locations, mine didnt fit until I put some clearance for it, but it sealed up great using the gasket & RTV, been bone dry for 10+ years now.

On stock pans Dave at SD & Ace said the will work for most cams including the OF but they needs clearance on both sides, Ace suggested denting the whole length not just spots. Either pan should work with a little work.

On the lifters, hard for anyone on here to say if they are reuseable based on pics, probably best to call Johnson or whoever made them and ask what they say or see if they or someone can rebuild them or refinish the wheels for a lot cheaper than buying new ones.

1.5 rockers will lower the lift & slightly duration which may be what you want based on your past comments about not using/needing the full potential of a cam that big when you only do some occasional burnouts and stay under 5000 99% of the time?

[Shiny]

Just curious - are wear tracks around the full circumference of a roller normal or even common?

I guess I'm asking if roller wear at the valve contact surface is normal?

These are hardened rollers riding on hardened pins, right? So do they rock at the valve contact or do they actually slide like a stamped rocker? Or is it a mix depending on load and rpm?

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by gtorich

That is a great question, i can not get a finger nail or anything to catch on the rollers, they just have lines in them, im assuming from dirt or whatever.

Have pics, but i think the flash makes them look worse than they are, i did try using wd-40 and a scotch pad, didnt rub hard but the lines are there.

Rich

If the rollers all feel smooth, and the tie bars are not damaged from hitting the valley tray, if those things check out with low use and it was working ok before, the lifters should be fine to put back into service. With use a few grooves on the rollers are common.

I use the right stuff gasket maker to seal up the valley trays, it more flexible than RTV, and does not find its way to the oil pickup as much.

[gtorich]

Originally Posted by Jay S

If the rollers all feel smooth, and the tie bars are not damaged from hitting the valley tray, if those things check out with low use and it was working ok before, the lifters should be fine to put back into service. With use a few grooves on the rollers are common.

I use the right stuff gasket maker to seal up the valley trays, it more flexible than RTV, and does not find its way to the oil pickup as much.

John wanted me to measure the lifters, when measuring the whole thing i get 2.953 lowest and 2.965 highest.

When just measuring the body, they are 2.852-2.853 measured the best i could.

Couple pics of the marks on the bodies, never saw lifters before in a motor so i dont know if this is normal or not.

Jay, everything is smooth except for those lines, cant find any damage that i can see on the tie bars...........just nervous using this stuff again, one way or the other im gonna keep thinking something is gonna go wrong, but then again seems like my new stuff is bad most of the time also.

I really appreciate you guys hanging in there with me.

I havent heard anything from Tim at Bullet cams............would any of you guys make some changes to this cam one way or the other.

I dont know if i can send these to Johnsons and have them look at them, they are two + years old.......i will check into that.

Rich

[Steve C.]

Not suggesting it would apply here but I'm aware of a SD Performance build in 2010 that used the Crane 99893 springs on a set of his KRE D-ports that were the 300-305 CNC version.
They were set up at 1.780-1.790 on the intake and 1.810-1.815 on the exhaust.

As a reminder, don't trust the pressure stated in catalogs at the different published installed heights.
Test them at your actual varified installed height with their retainers in use on a calibrated spring checker.


.

[grandam1979]

It’s weird you have just dents and not drag marks and scratches from the lifters moving if that’s what it was. Almost looks like someone tried to clearance it with a ball peen hammer.

[gtorich]

Originally Posted by grandam1979

It’s weird you have just dents and not drag marks and scratches from the lifters moving if that’s what it was. Almost looks like someone tried to clearance it with a ball peen hammer.

Valley pan is 64-67 type...according to Dave at SD these pans need to be clearance on the pass side, i have 2 dents on p/s and 4 dents on d/s which he says need to work on.

I miss typed that the other day, he said the drive side should not have to be clearance. One would think if the link hit the vp it would be a small dent/scratch.

I have a real old vp laying around somewhere, i think i"ll give it a whack with a ball peen and see if they look alike.

[AG]

I would clean the lifters and reuse them. Adjust them to the middle of the plunger movement range. Soak them in your favorite solvent and use a PR to move the plungers until they all freely move.

[grivera]

Originally Posted by grandam1979

It’s weird you have just dents and not drag marks and scratches from the lifters moving if that’s what it was. Almost looks like someone tried to clearance it with a ball peen hammer.

I thought the same - those look like BFH impressions for clearance