[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by TinRabbit

Thanks so much fellas for alllll the info and thoughts on this. I too was surprised when I got the call it was done only to show up with it sitting on a stand ready to load and with those dyno sheets as they were, no prior call as to a potential carb problem or issues in general hence why it is now in my shop instead and asking here for better assistance.
First and foremost the carb problem, Ive contacted several places to see if they had something on hand but looks like I'll be sending this one out and waiting several weeks.
As far as the camshaft goes, I really thought I was getting a roller very close to the 068, when I saw the 106 seperation I wasnt sure why they went with that.
I am not opposed to a cam swap to get back on track of where I was initially wanting to get.
As far as a fresh dyno shop I do believe there is one very close that also has a wheel dyno in his shop, warrants a call on Wednesday!
Thanks again, I will keep adding pics as its opened up and some details what I find along the way

Do you have the cam card? If so can you post it?

Stan

[performerrpm]

Originally Posted by TinRabbit

Thanks so much fellas for alllll the info and thoughts on this. I too was surprised when I got the call it was done only to show up with it sitting on a stand ready to load and with those dyno sheets as they were, no prior call as to a potential carb problem or issues in general hence why it is now in my shop instead and asking here for better assistance.
First and foremost the carb problem, Ive contacted several places to see if they had something on hand but looks like I'll be sending this one out and waiting several weeks.
As far as the camshaft goes, I really thought I was getting a roller very close to the 068, when I saw the 106 seperation I wasnt sure why they went with that.
I am not opposed to a cam swap to get back on track of where I was initially wanting to get.
As far as a fresh dyno shop I do believe there is one very close that also has a wheel dyno in his shop, warrants a call on Wednesday!
Thanks again, I will keep adding pics as its opened up and some details what I find along the way

its a small cam...but i dont think id swap it yet. if it were me....id get some 6x4 heads and sell the heads you have. replace those head gaskets with stock head gaakets. i bet that and the carb problems addressed will be like awhole different animal. at 8k hopefully you find it has decent pistons but 6x4s will still be better if theyre the cast rebuilder pistons.

im sure the 77 transams were slightly underated but your dyno numbers arent too much lower than the low compression 400s of the time. and your compresdion may very well be lower than those.

[steve25]

I would live with that Cam for now as long as it’s installed at least straight up.

On a 106 it’s really not going to make peak power above 5K especially with stock 96 heads, but on a 106 it will sound heathy if nothing else.

Get the motor running right first.

[TinRabbit]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Do you have the cam card? If so can you post it?

Stan

I dug into the boxes and did not see the cam card, think I'll give the builder a call to see if they still have it, would be super nice to have the specs on everything they put into this but I guess I'll learn all that as I dive into it this weekend.

[TinRabbit]

After a phone call to a buddy pulled one cylinder head and started taking measurements. Double relief pistons that are .020 down in the cyl.
Looks like 1 of the water jackets in the head is plugged with a very old mess.
That .065 head gasket crushed down to approx .045
He recommended to just stick with the shortblock I have for now and he'll help redo topside.

[jwcfbd]

Appearance wise you have 4 different valves, some with a recess other's without. What do the rest of them look like? Did you supply the parts or did your shop? I can't believe a shop would release this engine without questioning the output. What's the story behind the engine and what was the discussion with the shop prior to building it?

[steve25]

It looks like all of your valves , at least in that photo are the same size, there’s just a difference in the coloration of them due to how the motor was running.

Of concern to me is that it looks like antiseize was used on the head bolts and that’s not good since the bolts will not torque up right without a light coat of oil only on them.
Wash off the bolts and roll the motor over upside down and flush out all of those 20 head bolt holes with CRC electromotive cleaner if it is antiseize and not misplaced sealer.

Unlike other brands Pontiac head bolt holes are blind and so no sealer is needed if it turns out that crap was not antiseize.

Either way the bolt holes need to be clean enough that each bolt threads in easily with just two fingers.

Whatever that crap is in the heads you want to get out fully, so while the heads are off I would pop out the freeze out plugs on each end of the head to do that 100%.

Those .060” over 8 notch pistons also have a chamfer around there perimeter to keep the compression stock besides being .020” in the hole.

I would run a Fel Pro 8518 or 1016 gasket to get down to a crush of less than.045”.

While the heads are off take those lifters out and wash all of the oil out of them until they are bone dry roller wise.

Then spin them to check that they all roll smoothly with no stops and starts in the noise which would also indicate that they are going bad.

If they pass dip them in oil and roll them to lube them back up nice.

If your running the stock rocker studs now is the time to upgrade them to full 7/16” if your budget allows.

[JLMounce]

This is not an $8000.00 rebuild. Full stop.

To get to that type of figure requires an amount of machining and parts that this engine doesn't have. What, if anything you want to do about that, is your call.

I'd run the Felpro 1016 on this to tighten up the quench as much as possible. If the pistons are .020 in the whole you'd end up with about .060 quench, which is not great, but still better. My calculations would put you right at about 8:1 compression with that change. That's probably okay considering those pistons are notorious for creating detonation problems. The lower compression widens your tuning window.

I agree with everyone else, it's built and it's probably best to simply fix the visible problem spots while it's apart.

[67Lemons]

Yep $8,000 for those pistons that deep in the hole plus those head gaskets tells me that A-the shop knows nothing about Pontiacs or is the local auto parts machine shop and B- you must have high labor and parts rates in your neck of the woods or C- you got charged the Pontiac premium because a lot of shops don’t do many Pontiac builds or want too.

Now, regardless you have what you have and you want to make the best of it so looking at your valves and the potential for sloppy machine work it might be time to buy a cheap set of used castings with much smaller combustion chambers and have another shop swap over all of your (hopefully) new valve train components to get that compression up there for a little more HP.

[Region Warrior]

This pisses me off.
Seen stuff like this at my buddies home shop 40 yrs building performance engines.
2-3 local commercial shops wont use even for machine work. Not just pontiacs. All makes.

First off sorry TinRabbit.

I'll say it.
Maybe a good machine shop but not a good engineer. Either cant or didn't bother to calculate CCs for final CR.
Wrong type pistons .020 down with .065 gaskets(maybe go to on all stock type builds?)
Kinda stuck with them unless have $ replace while engine out. Need rebalanced(if was)cant find same weight.
As Steve said is that antisize on head bolt threads? No oil? And if did go into water jackets would use thread sealer. Not antisize.
Gunked up water passage in head?
Least used quality lifters. But whats that discoloration around push rod seats? Some kind of break in paste?

Worst of all.
Didn't use requested cam profile without consulting you 1st. What the....
Besides everyone else rec-'s I'd make sure has correct spring height. Just saying...
Maybe try get him pay some for correct replacement cam.
Either way id look for a different shop if need anything you can't handle.

Finally.
A dyno operation/operator can't tune?
At 13 could tune with just a dwell meter an vacuum gauge.
Someone needs get a new job.
Like Walmart greeter...

Best of luck.
Looking forward see you get satisfied.

[chiphead]

In general, this is why you have to get a line-item quote from an engine builder before any parts are purchased.

When I've had engines machined and parts sourced by the shop, I make it very clear that I want to know the MFG and PN of every main component that is going to be used, BEFORE it is purchased. For my last two engines, I bought the rotating assy myself and brought them to the shop for balancing and final machining. I also do all the final assembly, so that way I know what went in.

For those that have the shop build the engine, make it clear that you want a full parts list before parts are purchased. You also want a detailed blueprint list that lists ALL clearances, chamber size, overbore/crank undersize, etc so you know exactly what is in the build.

Not sure what went on with this build. But if the invoice shows forged pistons but you find the cast 8 eyebrow slugs installed, I'd be going to small claims court. Those pistons are $225 for a set of 8 at summit. That head appears to only had the burnt valves replaced. I re-calculated the compression with the -15cc dish of those pistons and .020 deck. 7.68 compression.

Does the builder's name rhyme with Loose Bulper?

[Dragncar]

You could always hone it for forged pistons and re balance. That would wake the engine up a bit.
I would not run those pistons on...................... anything.
You could get a .027 Cometic gasket and help thing out a little.

[JLMounce]

I like the cometic gasket approach in theory, but I'm not sure one would seal on that block. The deck is visibly not flat and although you can't tell RA from a photo, if the engine wasn't decked flat, there's little to no change it's surface finish would support an MLS gasket. Maybe a non-issue considering this thing doesn't have a lot of cylinder pressure, but still something I'd be worried about.

[TinRabbit]

Again, BIG Thanks for all the thoughts, replies and the overall helpfulness from all of you!
I had the builder do other work over the years without problem but most was chevy or small engine machine work so I dunno if the Pontiac threw him off or what to make of it at this point.
He still says it's "That damn Quadrajet, they are junk"
Nope, not the Loose Bulper however I do understand why you might wonder that
Shortblock is on the stand for now, going to get those heads cleaned of the stuff built up in them then this weekend decide what the overall plan is going to be.
Thanks again for the help and advice, will keep upto date posts as I lumber though it.

[b-man]

I seems clear the builder wasn’t interested in the least in making sure the build went well.

Unfortunately not doing your due diligence bit you in the a$$, you have to direct the build not just expect it to happen and be built to your satisfaction.

He got it done and is now washing his hands of it.

Your builder is a clown for blaming it on a fine carburetor that GM and other brands used successfully on millions of passenger cars including muscle cars.

Here’s my 421 being built by an experienced friend in conjunction with a trusted machine shop, this is how it’s done. I had plenty of input on every aspect but also trusted my friend to handle things:

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=771741

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by b-man

I seems clear the builder wasn’t interested in the least in making sure the build went well.

Unfortunately not doing your due diligence bit you in the a$$, you have to direct the build not just expect it to happen and be built to your satisfaction.

He got it done and is now washing his hands of it.

Your builder is a clown for blaming it on a fine carburetor that GM and other brands used successfully on millions of passenger cars including muscle cars.

Here’s my 421 being built by an experienced friend in conjunction with a trusted machine shop, this is how it’s done. I had plenty of input on every aspect but also trusted my friend to handle things:

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=771741

Yup, agreed completely. I did my recent 465 build the same way. I was involved with every aspect of the build including parts selection, machining needs and wants etc.

The process took 5 months and I was rewarded with a pretty stout piece that will last me decades to come.

It's unfortunate, but based on the pricing from my builder, either the OP's builder has incredibly high labor rates, or there's a solid $1500-$2000 that isn't accounted for for what the block looks like and the type of parts that are in it.

That said, OP I think you'll still be able to get your engine to a satisfactory state. It doesn't sound like you were trying to build a street brawler. I think you can respectably get this engine pumping out stock RAIII 400 numbers with a few tweaks and good tuning. You'll still be able to have a lot of fun with it!

[P@blo]

Originally Posted by jwcfbd

Appearance wise you have 4 different valves, some with a recess other's without. What do the rest of them look like? Did you supply the parts or did your shop? I can't believe a shop would release this engine without questioning the output. What's the story behind the engine and what was the discussion with the shop prior to building it?

Good eye. Does not give a guy a warm fuzzy for any of the machine work done or the actual build itself.

[Scarebird]

Originally Posted by P@blo

Good eye. Does not give a guy a warm fuzzy for any of the machine work done or the actual build itself.

Given that, I would tear down the rest, examine carefully, and ****can those horrible pistons.

I would growl every time I drove that car if I didn't, knowing I did not fix the main issue here.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by TinRabbit

I dug into the boxes and did not see the cam card, think I'll give the builder a call to see if they still have it, would be super nice to have the specs on everything they put into this but I guess I'll learn all that as I dive into it this weekend.

If the builder doesn't have the cam card you can try and contact the manufacture and see if you can get a duplicate cam card.

Stan

[b-man]

Used factory valves.

They’re 2-piece, the head is friction welded to the stem and old used ones can fail usually taking the entire engine with them. Sometimes not but still….

For an 8 grand rebuild it should have had at the very least all new valves.

Bringing your builder a messed up carb that couldn’t open the secondaries all the way was a mistake on your part. This gives him an excuse to say Q-Jets are junk because the one you supplied was junk as it sat.

The 8 eyebrow pistons aren’t the best but they’ll suffice, at least they’re not down in the hole any further than a factory piston would have been as 400 engines normally are at .020”.

Don’t waste money on your current #96 heads, find some 1970 #13 400 heads that are normally between 77 and 81ccs. A set of 6X-4 heads are more or less equivalent to your #96 heads and have at least another 10 to 15ccs in the chamber compared to #13 heads and they won’t get you to the 9:1 number you need to wake it up.

The #96 heads are factory rated at 8.2:1 on a standard bore 400 with 4 valve relief pistons, and likely not even 8.2:1. Now you’re at +.060” which helps but that compression gain is negated by the 8 relief pistons. The #96 heads belong on a 455, someone out there wants them.

I’d be very tempted to just buy a pair of KRE 65cc aluminum heads and not blow $1500 rebuilding iron heads. Iron heads with the right casting numbers are for muscle car restoration nowadays, going aluminum just makes sense at least to me in this instance.