[Geeto 67]

This was easily a 10,000 square foot building and the floor was an epoxy floors with 4 coats instead of the standard 2 (in a custom color - green). Plus he had to repair some of the concrete and prep the surface so it would take the epoxy. At $3.50 a square foot (his cost - the job usually retails for $4 a square foot). This isn't some low grade paint on floor - this is permanent stuff.

He's spoken to his attorney and they are handeling it - not much has happend in the week since we were there.

I have never heard of these kinds of bills ever! And was appalled when the guy expected my buddy to pay them without ever providing any kind of accounting.

Originally we though of letting him keep the car and putting a lein on the building for the floor, but the shop could still sue him for the amount owed which would make very complicated and involve a lot of lawyers.

Either way everybody involved is pretty upset.

Thanks for the replies guys, keep them coming.

[Jeff Walker]

900 hours and there still isn't paint on the car yet???? I think someone is really milking the hours!!

To give you an example I just finished restoring a customers 57 Chevy this summer. It was a complete running car when I started. The car was completely disassembled down to the point of the bare shell on the frame. The car had some minor rust that I had to repair. All the drivetrain was rebuilt, also disc brakes and aftermarket A/C were added. The billable time I had into this car came up to just shy of 830 hrs and he probably supplied another 100 of his own time. And I don't consider myself a really fast worker.

[Geeto 67]

Originally Posted by Jeff Walker

900 hours and there still isn't paint on the car yet???? I think someone is really milking the hours!!

To give you an example I just finished restoring a customers 57 Chevy this summer. It was a complete running car when I started. The car was completely disassembled down to the point of the bare shell on the frame. The car had some minor rust that I had to repair. All the drivetrain was rebuilt, also disc brakes and aftermarket A/C were added. The billable time I had into this car came up to just shy of 830 hrs and he probably supplied another 100 of his own time. And I don't consider myself a really fast worker.

Milking the hours is an understatement. 900 hours and there isn't even a roof on the car.

when we were there he kept talking about a weekend he spent searching junkyards for sheetmetal for the car. He came up empty handed, but I wouldn't be surprised if all that time he "spent chasing parts around goddamn pennsylvania" showed up on the bills, if we ever see the bills.

I think this situation is just the pits and the owner is just trying to extort money out of my friend.

[PetesPonies]

don't misunderstand me to think I , in any way, agree with this shop. But,in regards to running down parts...well that can be billable time to me. Typically a shop charges retail for parts, but they buy wholesale. They make money selling you parts. If I am looking for and buying used parts..I either have to raise the price past what I charged you or charge for the time involved. Hell lawyers charge you to talk to them on the phone. Same difference here, it is time I have to spend because of the job I am doing for you. Again..don't think that I think anything, in this situation, sounds realistic )

[Geeto 67]

Originally Posted by PetesPonies

don't misunderstand me to think I , in any way, agree with this shop. But,in regards to running down parts...well that can be billable time to me. Typically a shop charges retail for parts, but they buy wholesale. They make money selling you parts. If I am looking for and buying used parts..I either have to raise the price past what I charged you or charge for the time involved. Hell lawyers charge you to talk to them on the phone. Same difference here, it is time I have to spend because of the job I am doing for you. Again..don't think that I think anything, in this situation, sounds realistic )

Yeah but you wouldn't charge a customer for a weekend of running down parts without calling him and telling him that is what you were going to do, would you? Not to mention that he didn't come back with any parts.

I used to work in a shop that did 100 point restos on corvettes. My boss would buy wholesale and charge retail. Even with used parts there was a retail markup. However if a part was really rare and he needed to do a search for the part that required him to leave the shop, he would have the customer come in, he would explain the situation, and have the customer sign an agreement that it was understood he would be billed for the search time. Billing for search time in a resto shop is not all that common , and when it does happen there is a lot of communication between the shop and the customer.

If you look at standard business practices, this is not one that is common (unlike an attorney where his advice is the product and a common business practice).

["Puddles the Pontiac"]

searching for parts all weekend and not finding them is like a waitress expecting a tip for going to get your food but not bringing anything back. and anybody that can see should be able to find those panels. jeeze '77 i believe was the largest production year for those cars wasn't it? and don't the camaro stuff match as well. light a litigious(sp) fire under that boys a$$. no paper work? no communication? this is almost cut and dry. best of luck.

[kyle_blake]

This sounds like to me a guy who opened up shop, knows he owes tons of money on start up costs. Had a buddy of his sit him down and explain this "bait and switch" + " add 35k " approach.

Then he targeted you.

Often different cultures and people of different back grounds have different reasonings for what is acceptable business practice.

Some people think asking a question about why a job was done a certain way is well...an insult..

Not sure if that applies or is relevant but when people go this far out to do something, there is some underlying reason...

because this sounds drastic

Lastly your appraiser could add up and view the work that was done to the car get an approx amount, ie removing engine, etc...down to frame.

It was a straight across, does he think your made of money?

Talk about unfair and rude, the fall of the ladder comment is icing on the cake.

That one he is saving for the judge, take mercy on me judge the receipts are in the ambulance.........

pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease

[formula400]

i own a restoration shop , and from what i'm reading and not seeing the car, your buddy is getting ripped off big time.

First off for 900 hrs into a car can be understandable and is very easy to do but that car should be completed or pretty much done

Second who in the hell would put 70 grand into a freakin 77 t/a
I agree with your friend the owner should have called when the 35,000 mark was met and the car was not completed. I always keep in contact with my costumers on exactly where thier hard working money is going, i keep logs on all the time spent on the car with exactly what was done in that billable time.

Third , i have never charged a costumer for searching down parts , i believe thats part of the job. If i have to drive for something and its within reason i don't even charge for that,and if i do its for gas.This shop owner must be doing crack and sniffing to much paint fumes

I wish him the best of luck with this one , keep us posted

[PetesPonies]

well it is common practice in the business to charge 25% above cost for used parts. If that is what you or anyone else does...then charging for time involved becomes moot. It just depends on the way you do your business. In any case...you communicate with the customer. Today, sending emails are so easy..along with pics of progress. I do this and there are no surprises. I also bill along the way. It keeps both of us happy.

[rexus31]

How many days did the shop have the car? 900 hours is 112.5 days of working on the car 8 hours a day. Unless they've had the car for at least 6 months there is no way they put that much time into it unless it was the only car in the shop.

[PetesPonies]

no...you could have multiple people working on the same car..more hours.

[hslager69]

didn"t the guy check up on his car while it was in the shop! i would have checked up at least weekly.

[keith h]

It sounds to me as if the body guy never had,nor does have the $35,000 to give your friend for the floor. I think you should post the name of the shop as a beware for folks in our area.

[janderson]

Have 2 shops, and typically mark up 25-30% on used parts, and then there can be additional charges to transfer items, repair damage, strip old finishes, test fit, etc. Freight and/or delivery charges are put on the ticket. With fuel charges as they are, have been experiencing fuel surcharges. I don't charge to shop for parts, but the nature of our buisness doesn't allow for us to go and pick up items.
Restorations are a whole different ballgame than from production work, for the work that is lost from the stall not being productive, the job has to have pretty good time (money) on it before I take the job in.
We maintain a call log, and this amounts to calling customers twice a week for updates. Always take alot of digital pictures, can never take enough. Don't want to throw anybody under the truck, but sounds like this shop is definitely one to put on the black list. It is difficult to be accurate in an estimate on restoration type work and/or rust repairs, but this is definitely off the deep end of the extreme. Believe me, I charge for everything that we do, but it all has to be communicated and documented. Good luck, will be curious to see how you guys make out.

[ALW62]

Think at this point your friends gonna want to ditch the T/A, put a lien on the bodyshop ("the business") and plan on writing the $35K off over the next year or two depending upon his finacial circumstances. The lien can go a long way to encumber the shops ability to get business loans and or the future possibility of a sale of the business--if in fact this is even a business worth purchasing or sale value. Real sucko situation no matter how you slice it.

[PetesPonies]

janderson...sounds like you and I are on the same page and do business things alike..I concur

[Geeto 67]

Hey Guys and Gals,

Thanks for the replies so far, lots of good insight here.

I will be posting the name of the shop in the better business section of the board after things are worked with my friend's car. I just don't want to hurt my friend's chances of getting his car back or recovering the cost of the floor.

I found out some more interesting things over the weekend. When we visited the shop there were approximatley 7 cars in various states of completetion, including a 1967 mustang and two 1946 Dodge sedans. I turns out that all the cars in the shop belong to the shop owner or his employees. This means that my friend's car is the first "customer" car this shop has done.

The more I think about it the more this is a likely scenario:

This sounds like to me a guy who opened up shop, knows he owes tons of money on start up costs. Had a buddy of his sit him down and explain this "bait and switch" + " add 35k " approach.

As for the shop having the car, they have had it since December 2005 or January of this year (I forgot which it is), the hours don't add up to me either since I know there is only the Owner, A mangager/head mechanic and another mechanic and the owner barelys know what is going on.

As for my friend keeping contact he visited the shop three times - the first when he droped the car off, the second when they had finished patching the floor (way before they cut the roof off), and the third with me. He would call approximatley every two weeks when the project first started and got just blanket assurances and vague descriptions. At one point the shop called him and spoke to his elderly father (why I have no idea, my friend had been doing some work at his fathers place and had given the shop the number as a back up number to reach him at) and assured him that the car would be done for the agreed trade. After that my friend could not get a hold of them for three months - then he gets this call out of the blue saying he owes this huge amount of money on it.

the whole thing stinks and I will keep y'all posted on this as I find out more.

[sts]

Why are you waiting to post the name? This isn't a case or resolving the issue; the guy is a crook, regardless to the outcome. Let's say that you walk into the bank, whip out a gun, and say "this is a stick...." then change your mind when everybody's eyeballs fall on the floor. This means that you're not a crook because it had yet to have been resolved? Yeah, tell it to the judge.

Same thing with this case, and you are doing the public a great diservice to cloak this crook by not disclosing who it is.

[Geeto 67]

Originally Posted by sts

Why are you waiting to post the name? This isn't a case or resolving the issue; the guy is a crook, regardless to the outcome. Let's say that you walk into the bank, whip out a gun, and say "this is a stick...." then change your mind when everybody's eyeballs fall on the floor. This means that you're not a crook because it had yet to have been resolved? Yeah, tell it to the judge.

Same thing with this case, and you are doing the public a great diservice to cloak this crook by not disclosing who it is.

Posting the guy's name before legal action has been taken can complicate things even more and hurt my friend (I have first hand expirence on this). I have no disagrement about the guy being a crook, and when I feel it is safe for me to post the shop name I will. If someone in the jersey area is looking for a resto shop and is really concerned about this they can pm me.

[Mark O]

As a shop owner, I always look at situations like this:

If I ever have to stand before a Judge and explain my actions, my worst fear will be if the Judge asks me if "as a professional, should I have know better that to do 70,000 worth of work to a ’77 Bird on a verbal handshake?”

With no written contract, I think that I’d lose that case.

Even to someone who doesn’t know, 70,000 for panel replacement and really nice paint is way out of the ballpark. When owners don’t know what is happening at the business, it’s usually a bad sign.