[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by John Langer

There is no clamping issue. There is no softness issue. There is a heat issue. Remove the heat, remove the problem. It's that simple. Using the insert by itself will not resolve the issue.

One item in this quote, I am not sure about. I do not know if John was still using the goofy 1/2"- 7/16" step studs in the 2 center locations in his maximum effort Tiger heads. I do not like the idea of having 2 of the 10 clamping studs holding the head down having to operate at a 30% reduced clamp load. IMO, that can only lead to warping and leaking when the stress and heat are really on. If he had full 1/2" studs and equal clamp load, I agree.

[John Langer]

I run all 1/2" studs.

[p4msi1]

Originally Posted by John Langer

There is no clamping issue. There is no softness issue. There is a heat issue. Remove the heat, remove the problem. It's that simple. Using the insert by itself will not resolve the issue.

OK John, stop teasing, I will pay you for advise on this issue, please call me 540-967-4836 Shop or my cell 703-615-5027 so we can talk. I know you have many hours and much money fixing this and this is turning into a lot of money for me also. Like I said I am willing to pay you for advise, not looking for something for free.

Steve

[john marcella]

Originally Posted by John Langer

There is no clamping issue. There is no softness issue. There is a heat issue. Remove the heat, remove the problem. It's that simple. Using the insert by itself will not resolve the issue.

Absolute truth right here^^^

[john marcella]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

One item in this quote, I am not sure about. I do not know if John was still using the goofy 1/2"- 7/16" step studs in the 2 center locations in his maximum effort Tiger heads. I do not like the idea of having 2 of the 10 clamping studs holding the head down having to operate at a 30% reduced clamp load. IMO, that can only lead to warping and leaking when the stress and heat are really on. If he had full 1/2" studs and equal clamp load, I agree.

Question is do you really know what the clamp load actually is Across the head ?
Get some pressure paper and do a clamp load test , bet you'd be surprised/ disappointed. I Have not done this myself however I know that every time I ever test anything for real, I'm always disappointed. Lol

[Scott Roberts]

I ran all 1/2 studs as well along with 4 added bolts....still torched heads with acceptable temps....my heafs got welded on after every couple to 3 passes....
Sounds like Langer is AP''s bitch...free parts go a long way... the heads make massive power no doubt....but...
There is an issues...

[John Langer]

Originally Posted by Scott Roberts

I ran all 1/2 studs as well along with 4 added bolts....still torched heads with acceptable temps....my heafs got welded on after every couple to 3 passes....
Sounds like Langer is AP''s bitch...free parts go a long way... the heads make massive power no doubt....but...
There is an issues...

I actually paid for my castings. I said what the issue is and how to correct it.

[Scott Roberts]

So how do you correct it on methanol and no water?

[John Langer]

Run water in the head and not the block.

[Scott Roberts]

I ran no water at all... it was a straight methanol blower application where we had to build heat in the motor to make a pass...
If I need water, there is a problem...

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by john marcella

Question is do you really know what the clamp load actually is Across the head ?
Get some pressure paper and do a clamp load test , bet you'd be surprised/ disappointed. I Have not done this myself however I know that every time I ever test anything for real, I'm always disappointed. Lol

I am aware of the paper and the process and I have been to a seminar by Fuji Film at the AETC conference years ago. But to answer your question, no, I have not performed the process on any Pontiac heads. It would be educational and an excellent idea for people having gasket issues like traditional Pontiac's. I have looked at pressure prints from SBF's and SBC's. You can clearly see the advantages of the 5 bolt pattern like a SBC uses. But to your point, the LS engine that everyone seems to be in love with is a 10 bolt head. You can bet pressure paper was used to develop an even clamp load with just 10 bolts. You really bring up an excellent point in a way of how far behind and difficult is to develop a niche engine like a Pontiac vs a Chevy, Ford or Mopar. Just developing a better clamp load for our heads would take some of that very expensive paper, lots of time and effort to make it happen. And it's just one tiny part of the overall engine package. All of these details have been worked out by the other guys.

[p4msi1]

Now this was a much needed conversation. I picked up a few morsels of information and a few people to contact. I am trying to compete in the Virginia's Fastest Street car competition and the car is fast enough to get on the list but can't live long enough, so I just need a little help from my brothers. Thanks for all the input guys!!!!!!!


Steve Prudhomme

[Glenn Sedig]

The heat generated by 2 exhaust valves side by side in the center of the head softens the alum enough to cause the web between the center cylinders to deform down .002 to .004. The ridges in the head gasket also indent into the alum web by several thousands of an inch. The other webs with 2 intake valves side by side show no distortion or effects from heat. After the center web is pushed down, the head gasket has less clamping pressure in that area, which slows the disipation of heat causing the head gasket to burn and allows combustion pressure to pass between the cylinders.

All of the heads I have put inserts into regardless of the brand have had this same problem.

On my engine with over 15:1 compression I have had no problems. When tearing it down, the area of the gasket where the insert is, shows no sign of heat or leakage. The insert is pulling the heat away from the area so that the insert in the web does not get hot enough to deform. The copper alloy insert will also take much more heat that is generated in the web area before it gets soft enough to deform.

Jim is right, the problem is too much heat. So the answer is to get rid of some of the heat or find something that will hold up to the heat. Adding water holes will get rid of some off the heat and the copper inserts will hold up to the heat.

One or both of the fixes can be a solution. With that said we will still have problems in the center web area on high hp heads because of the heat and the thickness of the web.

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by p4msi1

Now this was a much needed conversation. I picked up a few morsels of information and a few people to contact. I am trying to compete in the Virginia's Fastest Street car competition and the car is fast enough to get on the list but can't live long enough, so I just need a little help from my brothers. Thanks for all the input guys!!!!!!!


Steve Prudhomme

Cool.


I applaud everyone in this thread for keeping at it.



Changing HG every 50 passes is not what I consider fun.

[jimmy daniel]

I’ve raced Pontiacs since the 80s and still do. Obviously not at this level cause I did not know there was such a problem blowing head gaskets. Some of you guys are getting10-30 then changing?!! I’m amazed you’ve hung on this long. Kudos to you!

[John Langer]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

Cool.


I applaud everyone in this thread for keeping at it.



Changing HG every 50 passes is not what I consider fun.

Well it use to be 3-5 passes

[Scott Roberts]

Originally Posted by John Langer

Well it use to be 3-5 passes

How many passes are you getting now ?

[Jeff Kinsler]

I put the inserts in my E-heads beginning of last year and went from having some leakage start between the center cylinder in 10 to 15 passes to now going 50 to 60 passes without changing head gaskets. So I can verify that the inserts definitely work.

Also I will be running a set of the new tigers for next year and I dont think there is going to be a problem. They have water going between the two exhaust valves and I will have the inserts put in.

EHTTFMF

[LiL Jack]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kinsler

I put the inserts in my E-heads beginning of last year and went from having some leakage start between the center cylinder in 10 to 15 passes to now going 50 to 60 passes without changing head gaskets. So I can verify that the inserts definitely work.

Also I will be running a set of the new tigers for next year and I dont think there is going to be a problem. They have water going between the two exhaust valves and I will have the inserts put in.

EHTTFMF

Don’t you mean: THTTFMF?



You’re rich.

[Mark G]

Originally Posted by LiL Jack

Don’t you mean: THTTFMF?



You’re rich.

You need to be rich to be competitive with a Pontiac...