[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by Chris65LeMans

Earlier this year, the 6.2 liter LS in my daily driver Yukon had 2 rod bearings fail and the engine seized on the freeway with 3,200 miles, so there's that. Still had the paper plates on it.

If you're keeping it or selling it, you'll still need to put a working engine in it, so there's that.

When the 440 stroker in my car died, the rebuild quotes here in LA were so high that I ended up buying a 462 from Kaufmann. They'll break it in on the dyno, tune it, then crate it up and ship it to you ready to go.

Good luck!

Yes, a lot will depend on costs involved here. If it's up there quite a bit, I may end up going a route like that.

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

What was your oil pressure gauge doing while all this was going on? My best guess is you spun a rod bearing and lost oil pressure causing the valve train to become noisy. As the rod journal ground away at the bearing (the growling sound) the clearance was partially restored and oil pressure returned (albeit lower). This quieted the valve train some. You probably wiped out the main bearings too but only an inspection will tell. An event like that usually starts with a momentary drop of oil pressure or a fluctuating oil pressure gauge needle that wiggles a bit at first and then eventually drops.

I keep a pretty good eye on my oil pressure. It's never fluctuated that I could tell. However one thing that I did notice recently, probably within the last month or so was that the pressure was ever so slightly slower to come up after engine start and during cruise, it was actually running about 5psi higher than typical. I attribute that probably to all the sludge that was building up in the oil and it's increased viscosity.

[tom s]

Im still using Autotec,Paul K might be able to help you with them.tom

[JSchmitz]

Sorry to hear about your troubles. This story is eerily similar to mine. Old build with factory rods, crank, TRW slugs, etc. Decided to upgrade to AL heads. Twenty year old cam wipes a lobe a week before I was going to install heads.. New flat tappet cam wipes a lobe on break-in. Upgrade to roller cam...block cracks in #7 cylinder wall.... Not to mention tearing it down to the bare block twice to clean out the trash between failures. That's why there's a $400 5.3 between my frame rails now. Best of luck to you!

[Dragncar]

Sorry to hear this. But I doubt its catastrophic. I would lay money its the typical hyd roller lifter having problems. I mean, how many times have we seen this ?
Its a street TRW 455 engine, they are really tough if you don't over rev them. I POUNDED on a TRW 455 for decades with steel rods and its still OK.
So I bet you have a .030 over 455. You can get modern pistons with slots for gas porting, better than ported pistons which can clog. I like file fits over gapless.
You can probably go .010 over, and do a ridged hone with TQ plate. And who knows, your pistons and bores might be OK enough for a new set of rings. Upgrade to steel rods, new rings and re balance.
Myself, I would not touch a hyd roller lifter with a 10 foot pole. Maybe if the new Comp lifters turn out tough and so far so good with them. Consider the BAM solid roller lifters with steel bushings and DLC option. Their reputation is tough a nails. Get some Crower SS Endura rockers and run a stud girdle or maybe even go shafts if you can afford it. Sold lifters do not need adjusted all the time like many think.
Whatever you do, drill your main bearings to line up with the oil hole in the block the oil actually comes from. Its very important to the long life of a Pontiac.
Consider building it yourself, you sound like a smart guy and the satisfaction you get is so worth it IMO. You would spend far more paying a pro to do it. You do not need a ton of measuring tools either. But you do need to pick a shop with a impeccable reputation to machine it.
You are going to be fine. Its just a process and learning and doing is fun and satisfying.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Sorry to hear this. But I doubt its catastrophic. I would lay money its the typical hyd roller lifter having problems. I mean, how many times have we seen this ?
Its a street TRW 455 engine, they are really tough if you don't over rev them. I POUNDED on a TRW 455 for decades with steel rods and its still OK.
So I bet you have a .030 over 455. You can get modern pistons with slots for gas porting, better than ported pistons which can clog. I like file fits over gapless.
You can probably go .010 over, and do a ridged hone with TQ plate. And who knows, your pistons and bores might be OK enough for a new set of rings. Upgrade to steel rods, new rings and re balance.
Myself, I would not touch a hyd roller lifter with a 10 foot pole. Maybe if the new Comp lifters turn out tough and so far so good with them. Consider the BAM solid roller lifters with steel bushings and DLC option. Their reputation is tough a nails. Get some Crower SS Endura rockers and run a stud girdle or maybe even go shafts if you can afford it. Sold lifters do not need adjusted all the time like many think.
Whatever you do, drill your main bearings to line up with the oil hole in the block the oil actually comes from. Its very important to the long life of a Pontiac.
Consider building it yourself, you sound like a smart guy and the satisfaction you get is so worth it IMO. You would spend far more paying a pro to do it. You do not need a ton of measuring tools either. But you do need to pick a shop with a impeccable reputation to machine it.
You are going to be fine. Its just a process and learning and doing is fun and satisfying.

I do think the hydraulic rollers may have been part of the cause here. I wouldn't look at any other set on this except the Johnsons, which currently have a decent reputation.

I'm certainly looking at the idea of solids however. My only worry has been idle time. This is a street car and while I don't typically drive it in stop and go traffic where it may be at idle a lot, it does see some idle time. This seems to be somewhat of a known problem area for solid rollers.

At least locally, it appears that assembly costs on a rebuild run around $750.00 or so. So it's probably a wash after purchasing tools. I would need pretty much everything. All I currently own in this department is a torque wrench and dial calipers. I'm thinking the minimum assembly tool list looks like this.

Micrometers
Dial bore gauge
Deck height gauge
Timing wheel
Ring compressor
Ring filer/squaring tool

Anything I'm missing there at minimum?

[Formulas]

If i were to go street roller i would go tight side of specs on crank bearings so thinner oil can be used with direct roller lifter axle oiling along with the HP. SD. oil pump elevated idle RPM ... along with assuring lifter oil band gets pressure constantly

everything ive outlined is to promote the highest possible amount of oil at the most critical parts of a roller engine

[NeighborsComplaint]

My heart says steel residue in the oil from hydraulic lifter/cam lobe failure but my head tells me steel filings from the rod bearing shells and cast iron from the rod. Hoping for the best (least expensive fix)(lifter/cam failure).

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

I do think the hydraulic rollers may have been part of the cause here. I wouldn't look at any other set on this except the Johnsons, which currently have a decent reputation.

I'm certainly looking at the idea of solids however. My only worry has been idle time. This is a street car and while I don't typically drive it in stop and go traffic where it may be at idle a lot, it does see some idle time. This seems to be somewhat of a known problem area for solid rollers.

At least locally, it appears that assembly costs on a rebuild run around $750.00 or so. So it's probably a wash after purchasing tools. I would need pretty much everything. All I currently own in this department is a torque wrench and dial calipers. I'm thinking the minimum assembly tool list looks like this.

Micrometers
Dial bore gauge
Deck height gauge
Timing wheel
Ring compressor
Ring filer/squaring tool

Anything I'm missing there at minimum?

I have been doing this a long time. I do not have a bunch of micrometers. Just a 0" to 1" and a 3" micrometer and rarely use them.
No dial bore gauge either, but I will get one to check used bores. They are not expensive and if you are going to bore or ridged hone this thing you do not need one.
I mean, so if you want to check every little thing and you have extra cash there is nothing wrong with it. But I have a guy, a machinist and if he says your rods and mains are this clearance they are exactly what he says they are. Every time I have checked its been spot on.
But you need snap gauges to check your main clearances with a micrometer too.
No deck height gauge either. But I do have a cheap Harbor Freight 12" digital caliper for checking pushrod length and you will need one of those. A 6" too because everyone needs one of them. The 12" can be used to get close on your deck height. Deck to main and do the math.
You will need a adjustable pushrod to check their needed length.
You need one of those Summit adjustable ring compressors with the big hose clamp. Cheap. Ring filer, cheap.
Get the Summit degree wheel, cheap and you will need one of those Comp Cams crankshaft sockets to be able to turn the crank while degreeing it.
And Jegs makes a real nice and not expensive balancer removal-installer kit (77$) and you will need one of those for a press fit balancer. No slip fits on a real engine.
Good torque wrench. And if you are wise and use Molnar rods Lisle makes a torque angle meter for 60 $.
But you can buy a decent Harbor Freight torque wrench and does angle too for 180$.
750$ sounds pretty cheap for assembling a engine. Does that include degreeing the cam ? Guys I know charge a lot more than 750 $
You could just run a sft cam lifters and not worry about a thing after you get a good break in. I ran a chevy sft lifter in my 455 for years and it worked fine. Did not modify the lifter bores either for the oil band difference. Probably should have and its just a little labor and easy. I would be temped to run a chevy tool steel lifter on a custom Bullet sft cam and do the lifter bore mod.
Can not imagine one going flat.
And I just got off the phone with BAM lifters. Their lifters are pressure fed and have been shown to be practically indestructible in race engines.
With the spring pressure you are going to run you could not hurt them.
IMO get a custom Bullet SR cam from Tim G. and run the BAM lifters.
Not cheap but noting about this hobby is.
Some good pistons, right ring pack with ported rings, lighter steel rods and a custom SR cam and your engine will run So,ooooo much better and put a smile on your face.

[Formulas]

I have only spun one rod bearing in life back in 1982 sounded like an elf in my oil pan with a 5lb sledge hammer hitting the block hard every time a certain cylinder fired, the tempo increases fast with any throttle input, didn't throw that rod but sounded like heii

once you hear that sound there is no mistaking it for anything else

[punkin]

Hi Jason, what a bummer. If you need an extra set of hands, let me know.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

I have been doing this a long time. I do not have a bunch of micrometers. Just a 0" to 1" and a 3" micrometer and rarely use them.
No dial bore gauge either, but I will get one to check used bores. They are not expensive and if you are going to bore or ridged hone this thing you do not need one.
I mean, so if you want to check every little thing and you have extra cash there is nothing wrong with it. But I have a guy, a machinist and if he says your rods and mains are this clearance they are exactly what he says they are. Every time I have checked its been spot on.
But you need snap gauges to check your main clearances with a micrometer too.
No deck height gauge either. But I do have a cheap Harbor Freight 12" digital caliper for checking pushrod length and you will need one of those. A 6" too because everyone needs one of them. The 12" can be used to get close on your deck height. Deck to main and do the math.
You will need a adjustable pushrod to check their needed length.
You need one of those Summit adjustable ring compressors with the big hose clamp. Cheap. Ring filer, cheap.
Get the Summit degree wheel, cheap and you will need one of those Comp Cams crankshaft sockets to be able to turn the crank while degreeing it.
And Jegs makes a real nice and not expensive balancer removal-installer kit (77$) and you will need one of those for a press fit balancer. No slip fits on a real engine.
Good torque wrench. And if you are wise and use Molnar rods Lisle makes a torque angle meter for 60 $.
But you can buy a decent Harbor Freight torque wrench and does angle too for 180$.
750$ sounds pretty cheap for assembling a engine. Does that include degreeing the cam ? Guys I know charge a lot more than 750 $
You could just run a sft cam lifters and not worry about a thing after you get a good break in. I ran a chevy sft lifter in my 455 for years and it worked fine. Did not modify the lifter bores either for the oil band difference. Probably should have and its just a little labor and easy. I would be temped to run a chevy tool steel lifter on a custom Bullet sft cam and do the lifter bore mod.
Can not imagine one going flat.
And I just got off the phone with BAM lifters. Their lifters are pressure fed and have been shown to be practically indestructible in race engines.
With the spring pressure you are going to run you could not hurt them.
IMO get a custom Bullet SR cam from Tim G. and run the BAM lifters.
Not cheap but noting about this hobby is.
Some good pistons, right ring pack with ported rings, lighter steel rods and a custom SR cam and your engine will run So,ooooo much better and put a smile on your face.

Appreciate the input. I have a number of those items already. The install tool, digital caliper. I could use a better torque wrench.

As far as the assembly cost, the local machine shop shows pricing for complete engine rebuild with and without assembly. The difference was $750, so I figured that’s likely the price. I haven’t actually talked with them yet, so that would be different.

Is the idea on the SR cam still to add about 10* @.050 compared to a hydraulic cam? Meaning I was intent on running something around 242* on the intake, I’d actually want to spec a SR around 252*?

It appears the Bam bb1 lifters are comparably priced to the Crower enduro rockers. A couple hundred more than the Johnson hydraulics.

Originally Posted by Formulas

I have only spun one rod bearing in life back in 1982 sounded like an elf in my oil pan with a 5lb sledge hammer hitting the block hard every time a certain cylinder fired, the tempo increases fast with any throttle input, didn't throw that rod but sounded like heii

once you hear that sound there is no mistaking it for anything else

Definitely no tapping on my end. I still don’t actually know the cause here however.

Originally Posted by punkin

Hi Jason, what a bummer. If you need an extra set of hands, let me know.

Appreciate it. If I need a hand I’ll certainly let you know!

[Formulajones]

If all cylinders are pumping 190-200 I doubt you have a lifter failure. With a lifter failure you would certainly have a dead hole or at a minimum one that pumps way out of range from the others.
Hard for me to see in the pic but that looks like bearing material, something in the bottom end.

Sorry to hear but it happens to all of us if you play with these things long enough. Look at it as an opportunity to make it better

[chiphead]

Pull the valley pan and have a look. I've lost 2 HFTs over the years, and both made sharp slivers of ferrous metal. Growling would also make me think timing chain or valvetrain. I guess if it spun a rod it might growl before it knocks, in that case you're lucky you saved the block. But my bet is still valvetrain. I've found that badly worn intake lobes will show higher cranking compression due to early intake closing.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by chiphead

Pull the valley pan and have a look. I've lost 2 HFTs over the years, and both made sharp slivers of ferrous metal. Growling would also make me think timing chain or valvetrain. I guess if it spun a rod it might growl before it knocks, in that case you're lucky you saved the block. But my bet is still valvetrain. I've found that badly worn intake lobes will show higher cranking compression due to early intake closing.

This is a hydraulic roller engine. Still certainly could have had a lifter failure.

The engine is coming out regardless, so I won’t bother with taking the intake manifold off while it’s in the car.

I’m waiting to hear back on a buy quote from a local shop on the car. I don’t anticipate much. Barring some figure I can’t pass up, the engine will go to my local machine shop for rebuild and the heads will probably go back to KRE for rebuild and upgrades.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

I do think the hydraulic rollers may have been part of the cause here. I wouldn't look at any other set on this except the Johnsons, which currently have a decent reputation.

I'm certainly looking at the idea of solids however. My only worry has been idle time. This is a street car and while I don't typically drive it in stop and go traffic where it may be at idle a lot, it does see some idle time. This seems to be somewhat of a known problem area for solid rollers.

At least locally, it appears that assembly costs on a rebuild run around $750.00 or so. So it's probably a wash after purchasing tools. I would need pretty much everything. All I currently own in this department is a torque wrench and dial calipers. I'm thinking the minimum assembly tool list looks like this.

Micrometers
Dial bore gauge
Deck height gauge
Timing wheel
Ring compressor
Ring filer/squaring tool

Anything I'm missing there at minimum?

That should cover it; just make sure you purchase good quality mics and bore gauge. Fowler is a good quality brand with a reasonable price(.0001 calibration) You don’t need Starrett or Mitutoyo unless you are planning to machine and build engines professionally. A good set of feeler gauges would be required to set ring gaps. Deck height gauge? Piston deck height or block deck height? Piston deck height only requires a 0-4 depth mic with a four inch base; a block deck height gauge is serious money ( $500 for the one that BHJ sells). As I said earlier unless you are planning to start machining and building engines professionally you don’t need one. Your machine shop( find the best one in your area) should be able to measure the block height before and after milling the block decks. Put the funds for the deck height gauge into making sure your crank ( whether the OE or an aftermarket 4.250 stroke) is “on” stroke (+/- .003-.005) and has no taper (less than .0002 per journal) and no O/R (less than .0005 after final polish). Any questions feel free to PM me.

[JLMounce]

I spent a couple hours down at the local machine shop yesterday putting a parts and build list together. After taking some time to look at options such as an LS swap and even parting with the car, rebuilding the engine makes the most sense.

The machine shop is going to source most of the parts for this build, but there are a couple things I'll need to get on my end.

We are going to utilize the factory crank, unless it can't be salvaged.
ARP main studs
Eagle rods
DSS +.040 pistons and their plasma molly rings
It'll get Clevite P series bearings throughout
Thorough hot tank cleaning, all galley plugs removed, magnaflux the block
Check and clean up line bore
Deck the block (aiming for deck height around .002 with a .039 head gasket), they use a BHJ fixture
Hone to +0.040 with torque plate
Grind crank 20/20 as well as grind for 1 piece BOP seal
Balance the assembly
Cloyes true roller timing set

The machine shop is going to do the full assembly. This is the wife's ask, considering the amount we'll be spending, I'm not in a position to disagree. They will do there wet sump race engine assembly. They build lots of circle track stuff, so this represents their most detailed assembly procedures.

We also have a full day dyno break in and tune in the quote.

On my end I will have the heads rebuilt with porting and replacement of any parts that need so. Likely springs as well to support lift in the .570 to .600 range. I will supply the cam and lifters as well. Final piece on my end will be a new Nightmare performance oil pump. I'll be reusing the Nitemare performance pan as well as my BHJ balancer.

With the parts and head/intake work on my end, it looks like my all in cost is going to be +/- 10K

I'll have the engine out and disassembled in the next couple weeks, then I'll get the engine dropped off. They have a current lead time of around 3 months, so assuming I don't end up waiting on parts, I should have the engine back probably in October sometime.

On the cam, one thing I am leaning towards is using a cam with higher lobe lift to get around the .580" lift mark so I can continue to utilize my 1.5 rockers. There are some comp lobes, as well as lobes from other manufactures that achieve close to if not right at .4" which gets me where I need. However, this is being achieved by reductions in the base circle and I do have concern about keeping the lifter's oil bands in the correct locations. I've been satisfied with my Harland Sharp lifters, so if I need to order a new set of 1.65 rockers, I'll spend the money.

Cam will be a hydraulic roller with Johnson 2112OPR lifters. These are the .93" travel option.

Compression as designed in the build above is going to end up being around 10.35:1

I'm open to any and all suggestions here. My initial thoughts are a cam around 242/250 on a 112. The car weights 3600 lbs with me in it, is backed by a converter that stalls around 3200 and a set of 3.31 gears. I use short 26" tall tires. I don't have vacuum accessories that I need to power, but I do need to keep vacuum around 8" at minimum for my FiTech system. This is a street car, so it does need to have okay manners, but I definitely want some attitude. The 232/238/112+4 cam that is in it now is too tame. It made good power, but idled too smooth for my taste and makes power a little lower in the power band than I'd like.

I don't want or need to go crazy with RPM here. A shift point around 5700-6000 rpm is probably ideal.

[geeteeohguy]

Sorry for the setback. Will stay tuned to find out what the source of all the metal was.

[tom s]

Comp makes that cam in a 400 lobe lift,that will get you there.Tom

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

I spent a couple hours down at the local machine shop yesterday putting a parts and build list together. After taking some time to look at options such as an LS swap and even parting with the car, rebuilding the engine makes the most sense.

The machine shop is going to source most of the parts for this build, but there are a couple things I'll need to get on my end.

We are going to utilize the factory crank, unless it can't be salvaged.
ARP main studs
Eagle rods
DSS +.040 pistons and their plasma molly rings
It'll get Clevite P series bearings throughout
Thorough hot tank cleaning, all galley plugs removed, magnaflux the block
Check and clean up line bore
Deck the block (aiming for deck height around .002 with a .039 head gasket), they use a BHJ fixture
Hone to +0.040 with torque plate
Grind crank 20/20 as well as grind for 1 piece BOP seal
Balance the assembly
Cloyes true roller timing set

The machine shop is going to do the full assembly. This is the wife's ask, considering the amount we'll be spending, I'm not in a position to disagree. They will do there wet sump race engine assembly. They build lots of circle track stuff, so this represents their most detailed assembly procedures.

We also have a full day dyno break in and tune in the quote.

On my end I will have the heads rebuilt with porting and replacement of any parts that need so. Likely springs as well to support lift in the .570 to .600 range. I will supply the cam and lifters as well. Final piece on my end will be a new Nightmare performance oil pump. I'll be reusing the Nitemare performance pan as well as my BHJ balancer.

With the parts and head/intake work on my end, it looks like my all in cost is going to be +/- 10K

I'll have the engine out and disassembled in the next couple weeks, then I'll get the engine dropped off. They have a current lead time of around 3 months, so assuming I don't end up waiting on parts, I should have the engine back probably in October sometime.

On the cam, one thing I am leaning towards is using a cam with higher lobe lift to get around the .580" lift mark so I can continue to utilize my 1.5 rockers. There are some comp lobes, as well as lobes from other manufactures that achieve close to if not right at .4" which gets me where I need. However, this is being achieved by reductions in the base circle and I do have concern about keeping the lifter's oil bands in the correct locations. I've been satisfied with my Harland Sharp lifters, so if I need to order a new set of 1.65 rockers, I'll spend the money.

Cam will be a hydraulic roller with Johnson 2112OPR lifters. These are the .93" travel option.

Compression as designed in the build above is going to end up being around 10.35:1

I'm open to any and all suggestions here. My initial thoughts are a cam around 242/250 on a 112. The car weights 3600 lbs with me in it, is backed by a converter that stalls around 3200 and a set of 3.31 gears. I use short 26" tall tires. I don't have vacuum accessories that I need to power, but I do need to keep vacuum around 8" at minimum for my FiTech system. This is a street car, so it does need to have okay manners, but I definitely want some attitude. The 232/238/112+4 cam that is in it now is too tame. It made good power, but idled too smooth for my taste and makes power a little lower in the power band than I'd like.

I don't want or need to go crazy with RPM here. A shift point around 5700-6000 rpm is probably ideal.

The BHJ block fixture is one of the greatest inventions to aid engine machinists. No matter what marque of block you are machining achieving equal block deck heights is as simple as sitting the block in the fixture and adjusting it.

[grivera]

Sounds like a solid plan- is 10.35 compression enough for the 242/248 cam?