[Baron Von Zeppelin]

PMD 76X9 car . Dated March 27 1964
3x2 4spd 3.90
Billed prior to proposed April M21 availability , so definitely M20

Just smacking the stupid glossary misinformation with this one.

[johnta1]

Here are 4 that I have around that time period:
(you may have these already)


The p182640 I had as maybe fake? So probably came from here?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

That 78X9 4bbl 3.90 car is a unique one.
I don't think there were any ordering restrictions on 4bbl 3.90 M20 version.
- Have read that ,,supposedly,, the 3.90 M21 version did require TriPower engine.
- Not sure if that is completely true.

Mickey Craig was a long time GTO aficionado in NC from Day 1.
He claimed his Dad bought him a new 64 3x2 M12 (3spd) 3.90 peg leg car in 64.
Couldn't hardly accelerate -- it just wanted to spin that one tire effortlessly.
Traded it in 65 and ordered a Black 65 exactly how he wanted it.
Tarheel Tempest owns the 65 now and all the original paperwork , Mickey has passed on.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

We have definitely proven the case against the misinformation in the PHS transmission code glossary.
That misinformation has created controversy too often.

I was tracking 1965 3.90 axle cars for a while.
Surprisingly the M20 : M21 take rate was about 50/50
I thought the M20 would be much lower take rate.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

The two M20 Codes from Fremont might help to find a sheet with a 3rd (M21) code.
JP - M20 3.90
KP - M20 Standard

FP - M12 3 speed

If John V. pops in here , he probably already has all this sorted out.
He is dialed into 64s better than anyone and has a very large pool of documented examples.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Code 9 / JP M20 is using 17 tooth speedo gear (3.90)
Code W / KP M20 is using 19 tooth speedo gear (3.23)

Code X / FP M12 is using 19 tooth speedo gear (3.23)

Code J / SP M31 is using {35} tooth speedo gear - with an adapter for 3.36
3.23 must have been it's top limit w/o an adapter

In something I googled up , from here I think , said Code 9 used a 6 tooth gear.
That must have been a typo error.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Mickey Craig's 1st car must have been the Code H , 3.90 peg-leg

He talked like he didn't pick out anything on it.
His Dad ordered it and gave it to him for graduating.
I think it was White .Tarheel T would remember.
Cool Dad either way . It was TriPower.
Mickey ordered Black on the 65 replacement , so he must not have even got to pick the color on the 64.





64 4bbl Auto with 3.08
Axle code D0
* 41* tooth Speedometer Gear

[johnta1]

here's the P.O.P. for the post 15 sheet: (F021774)

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I'm using Google image search to find prospects.
Seems like an endless supply of them , majority are Fremont and PMD with sparse KC .
Don't think I am hitting any Baltimore cars.

The way KC manifests are done , we won't be able to distinguish with full certainty whether a 3.90 car is M20 version or M21 version.

I go through them for periods of time , at different times , until it makes me drowsy.
It's like searching for a 68 RamAir ll BHC or TA convertible invoice.

[johnta1]

BVZ, I found this one, had it as a 1963?


You may have it too, it's Wanger's 64 GTO.


If anyone got the M-21 it would be him? Nov 2 though.







Notice the '5' added? I think that was for the NEW? M-21.
(think '3' was the other M21)

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

The 5 was added in the tire code box.
3L was 3.23 posi with metallic brakes aka 42:13 memo
70-9 is an offbeat axle designator but have seen a couple others coded that way in past few days of searches.
= Performance axle ratio with Posi ( 3.23 .... ok )

64's are a messy bunch of codes from plant to plant

Like you said , too early for M21
Was this the "red ringer" 421cid magazine test car ?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

The way KC manifests are done , we won't be able to distinguish with full certainty whether a 3.90 car is M20 version or M21 version.

John V. could probably tell which tranny if we find a 3.90 example from Kansas or Baltimore.
I don't have their tranny code glossary . It's different.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

... 3L was 3.23 posi with metallic brakes aka 42:13 memo
70-9 is an offbeat axle designator but have seen a couple others coded that way in past few days of searches.
= Performance axle ratio with Posi ( 3.23 .... ok )

64's are a messy bunch of codes from plant to plant

Another L code 3.23 posi with metallic brakes from PMD.
70-3 this time versus 70-9

Read something once about 3.55 was standard with manual at one time in 64 , and 3.23 was standard at another time in 64.
Maybe Wangers car was during the 3.55 period , but he wanted 3.23.
pure guess towards the coding.

[post toastie]

found this surfin the net

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

The 64 4bbl Auto with 3.55 posi is pretty unique.

The Deadwood SD TriPower car , I can't find anything on option #691.
Looks like it was initially billed as 3L axle - 3.23 with metallic brakes.
Then corrected to something else.

[johnta1]

I can't find anything on option #691.

I have a note on a 691 as being for Saf-T-Trak in 1962 I think. (not sure if verified)

But that crossed out 'Positract' on the sheet would be a Chevy item? Maybe they corrected it for Pontiac number?

[johnta1]

Well, I guess Fremont did use 'Positract'.



Here is some more ideas: (plus the 62 sheet for the 691)

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

691 is just going to be a mystery for us.

HD Fan is another one. There has to be a Special Equipment Sheet that no one seems to have.
K08 on Fremont Manifest , 644 on PMD manifest
Can't find a listing for it on any sheet we have.

Thought maybe it could be grouped with HD Radiator
But have a Fremont Manifest for 3.55 axle car with HD Radiator , and no HD Fan listed.
The 3.90 4spd samples list both.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

In other news , a friend from BaT sent me a couple pages from a 2017 book called
Musclecars in Detail - #8 - 1964 GTO .

An article by John V. going into some detail about the 3.90 M21 cars .
At that point in time , John only knew of one documented car .
Maybe he can share any further details about it with us.
Evidently the car was no more - but they had the M21 tranny with VIN stamped on top and the original window sticker.

I know the car that I looked at in Daytona/Port Orange FL in 95 or 96 was a 76X8 car.
Up to that point all the 64 TriPower cars I had ever seen in person were 76XW.
Had bought/sold two 76XW engines up to that point also.
I knew X8 and X9 codes were a thing - from literature , but had never seen one in person.
The X8 stuck with me.
I have never seen or had any X9 pieces or cars at all.
Really don't think I am confused about it.

Car was basically an untouched survivor - and complete. Worn out original paint with minimal rot behind all 4 wheels. Stored indoors for almost 2 decades. Not started in over 10 years.
Owner knew exactly what he had and confirmed it was M21 3.90
He was just behind the times on value.

I was down there on a 2 week visit.
My uncle knew all about my Pontiac disease and told me it was for sale in the morning paper.
I wasn't into 64s for personal pleasure , but never passed up good 64 parts or cars to resell.
Could have doubled my money on that car easy , maybe close to triple.
But was going to let a good friend get it.... For $3000
He was seriously looking for a 64 TriPower GTO of his own.
I was the first one to the car.

He got on the owners nerves over a 64 in-dash Tach he thought he had but couldn't find yet.
My friend in NC didn't want to put up a penny until he found that Tach.
Owner got fed up with him and said no longer for sale , dont call anymore.

I went back to the guys house , and he told me basically the same thing.
That was that.
More to the story , in the middle , but that's how it landed.
He FKkD Up

About 3 weeks later at Charlotte Auto Fair swap meet , we were heading up an aisle where some guys from Georgia that specialized in Oldsmobile parts new and used always set up.
Sometimes some Pontiac stuff too.
Always stopped and shopped and talked.

Youngest guy , about same age as me , spots me and hollers for me to come over.
Asks why I didn't buy that Blue 64 in Daytona
?? How do you know about that ??
He had bought it - he was next in line.
My friend about croaked on the spot.

I told him how it went down , and why.
He laughed through the whole story.
Then said - oh yeh , I got the Tach with it too.
My friend walked off to have some moments in silence.
He Fkkd Up on that deal.

And now it looks like it was a gold plated needle in a haystack.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Car was in a garage only about a mile, or less, from my uncle's house.
Nocturne Blue with pretty decent Black interior.