[john marcella]

Originally Posted by John Langer

Yes 8.08 off the trailer first round of qualifying. At a race, with known rules for tires cubic inch and weight.

If I recall you were found not legal at that race. For irrelevant reasons but still not legal.

[John Langer]

Originally Posted by john marcella

If I recall you were found not legal at that race. For irrelevant reasons but still not legal.

Nah I was deemed legal. During initial tech I did not have a passenger seat in the car. I did not know the class required one. I told the tech official I would cut down a folding chair and bolt it in the car to be compliant. The tech director said don't worry and just have one in there the next time i show up. It wasn't a weight thing since I had around 75-90 pounds in the trunk to make weight. The entire passenger seat thing was funny. I saw one car that had a little kids plastic chair with the legs cut off bolted in.
Prior to my first and only qualifying run all of the competitors came by my pit and thanked me for showing up and supporting their series. I mean I had a Pontiac and all of them that showed up to prior races were not competitive. I was just another class filler. I went 8.08 off the trailer in the heat to qualify #2. That's when the rumblings started. I did not make any other qualifying attempt even when the sun went down and people were going faster. Competitors would ask me if I was hurt and that's why I didn't make any additional passes. I simply responded I didn't need to make additional hits.
I proceeded to put local hero after local hero on the trailer. I think I was protested 2-3 times that night due to not having a seat. Each time I told tech I'll bolt a folding chair in to be compliant but they would say don't worry about it. It got very disrupting. I was called a cheater time after time on the return road. People would argue that me not having a passenger seat was no different then "qualifying with a cast intake single 4 and then putting a billet dual 4 on for eliminations and saying I can't open my hood to show you my intake because my hood is stuck".
Not all of the racers and their crew up there were cry babies.

[Tom Vaught]

I agree with your point, John, that under a given weight, tire, and cubic inch rule that you had a certain et with your car.

Doesn't seem to matter much with the typical Pontiac guy who looks at the dairy farmer's ET and MPH numbers (no weight posted, no cid posted, no real rules, and wants to brag about what they did). Just a "Pontiac" engine that ran "x" ET and MPH and calls it a Pontiac record.

So even your number (under controlled parameters) will not line up with Mike's runs except if you were at the same track on the same day in the opposite lane (people will say the lanes were not the same) and both of you put down a number. That number being some ET and MPH at same weight, tire size, etc.............................................

So you guys are just "measuring" like I posted before. Talking the trash before the race season.

Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

Pointing out facts Stan, vs BS computer data. Something that you have never been any good at.

You can make a flawed computer program say anything you want and some will believe that bs. A good computer program matches the actual data from the track (without correction factors inputted by the computer whiz) to make his program look accurate.

I know what works based on thousands of dyno runs (run on monthly calibrated dynos at work in atmospheric controlled test cells).

Mike L knows what works on his engine based on actual track testing and trying a bunch of different variations.

You get butthurt when reality challenges computer simulation magic that is flawed.

At some point people will not listen to your bs and use your "simulations" anymore because they realize that they are BS and not worth messing with.

You can blow smoke up the butts of newbies and non hardware people but everyone else can easily see the smoke and mirrors.

Truth makes the Butthurt boys very unhappy. Be it the computer jocks or the What crowd.

Tom V.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Pointing out facts Stan, vs BS computer data. Something that you have never been any good at.

You can make a flawed computer program say anything you want and some will believe that bs. A good computer program matches the actual data from the track (without correction factors inputted by the computer whiz) to make his program look accurate.

I know what works based on thousands of dyno runs (run on monthly calibrated dynos at work in atmospheric controlled test cells).

Mike L knows what works on his engine based on actual track testing and trying a bunch of different variations.

You get butthurt when reality challenges computer simulation magic that is flawed.

At some point people will not listen to your bs and use your "simulations" anymore because they realize that they are BS and not worth messing with.

You can blow smoke up the butts of newbies and non hardware people but everyone else can easily see the smoke and mirrors.

Truth makes the Butthurt boys very unhappy. Be it the computer jocks or the What crowd.

Tom V.

Tom,
Try some reading comprehension. No computer simulations needed. Just looking at numbers from their time slips. Must be to much exhaust gas from all of those dyno test.

Stan

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Tom,
Try some reading comprehension. No computer simulations needed. Just looking at numbers from their time slips. Must be to much exhaust gas from all of those dyno test.

Stan

But you are not "selling" reading track time slips, Stan. Anyone with a 3rd grade education can read a time slip based on a run by another person. They can also quickly grasp that a lower number on the ET is good and a higher number on the MPH is good.

You are "selling" that your track simulations are close to horsepower numbers that the engine would need to generate the actual track time slips.

So a real world Engineer would run the vehicle tests on the track (in both directions) to compensate for the wind effects and the track rolling resistance differences along with a change in the track being perfectly level the whole distance. Our track was level within 1/4" over a 3.5 MILE track distance end for end. And we still ran 7 runs in each direction.

So your simulations leave out a lot of information.

The sharp EFI guys measure the actual oxygen in the air at the track they are at and calibrate the efi based on that actual info vs ASSume like you do.

You ASSume a lot of things Stan. That is why your stuff will never be right.

You don't get enough runs with no changes to accurately make a "average run" for an accurate simulation. No track racer is going to make 14 runs at the same conditions, rpm shift points, temperature points, track co-efficient conditions, etc.

So you can never get an accurate number with your stuff. And that is 'Old physics'
You can get an approximate number based on how much you want to fudge the data for your benefit.

So your Simulations are blowing smoke and your brain/mouth is blowing smoke.

It always happens that way when you (Stan) run up against someone who actually knows how the Aero Engineering, Parasitic Loss, and Rolling Resistance stuff works.

Tom V.

Not worth my time typing to explain further to you why your BS does not cut it in the real world.

[twooldgoats]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

....

So a real world Engineer would run the vehicle tests on the track (in both directions) .....

Most drag strips frown on this, though.

Jim

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by twooldgoats

Most drag strips frown on this, though.

Jim

Jim,
Tom, is doing an engineer study for playing "Chicken".

Please don't confuse him with facts about a drag race. Like two car go down the track at the same time in the same direction but in different lanes. Then he might want to see if there is a tractive force difference between the two lanes.

Stan

[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by twooldgoats

... Most drag strips frown on this, though...[run in both directions]

Interesting though, that international (FIA) acceleration records require two-way runs! [Or at least they did for a long time; perhaps they've changed the rules by now]

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by twooldgoats

Most drag strips frown on this, though.

Jim

That's FUNNY!



GTO George

[Half-Inch Stud]

Ahem, so in the V8 pursuit of exceeding 2.3 hp/cid, the notion of dual spark plugs comes to my mind.

a pilot was telling me about the rpm change you can hear when checking ignition to the spark plugs. Prime plug or redundant plug will both run a lower rpm than both plugs firing.
So that says something about the wet chemistry within a big bore.

Has there been PMD heads that have investigated dual sparkplugs?

not like a 2nd spark plug doubles the HP, but that would be a funny on someone, someday.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

Ahem, so in the V8 pursuit of exceeding 2.3 hp/cid, the notion of dual spark plugs comes to my mind.

a pilot was telling me about the rpm change you can hear when checking ignition to the spark plugs. Prime plug or redundant plug will both run a lower rpm than both plugs firing.
So that says something about the wet chemistry within a big bore.

Has there been PMD heads that have investigated dual sparkplugs?

not like a 2nd spark plug doubles the HP, but that would be a funny on someone, someday.

I have performed those very tests. It definitely makes a difference when you turn one magneto off. There is definitely power and spark plugs.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Originally Posted by mike leech

I have performed those very tests. It definitely makes a difference when you turn one magneto off. There is definitely power and spark plugs.

Those dual-plug scrap heads could be donated to PMD CYL head CAD science.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

Those dual-plug scrap heads could be donated to PMD CYL head CAD science.

On an aircraft silly. I have a&p

[Half-Inch Stud]

Originally Posted by mike leech

On an aircraft silly. I have a&p

Yea i know. But only now you specify, so i know that now too.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

Ahem, so in the V8 pursuit of exceeding 2.3 hp/cid, the notion of dual spark plugs comes to my mind.

a pilot was telling me about the rpm change you can hear when checking ignition to the spark plugs. Prime plug or redundant plug will both run a lower rpm than both plugs firing.
So that says something about the wet chemistry within a big bore.

Has there been PMD heads that have investigated dual sparkplugs?

not like a 2nd spark plug doubles the HP, but that would be a funny on someone, someday.

Mark,
Not to say 2 plugs is not a good thing. But if I am reading how the test was done it shows a greater HP drop then is really there. Unless you advanced the timing when running one plug to optimized conditions.

Stan

[Half-Inch Stud]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Mark,
Not to say 2 plugs is not a good thing. But if I am reading how the test was done it shows a greater HP drop then is really there. Unless you advanced the timing when running one plug to optimized conditions.

Stan

both magnetos set for best cruise power, intended to fire at same timing.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

both magnetos set for best cruise power, intended to fire at same timing.

Mark,
I do not know this engines configuration. But I do know from years ago working on the Chrysler 426 / Gen II hemi heads, that running the 2 plugs required less total timing than when the same engine / heads was run using only one plug. The flame front burn time is still the same but in the direct where the second plug was you now have a great distance for the flame front to travel.

Stan

[JSPONT]

So when is the race between Langer and Leech????????????? Bets anyone??? LOL

[mike leech]

What a nail biter......and did you go Faster and faster????


No wait let me guess..... You were sand bagging the rest of the night so that they were less upset about your missing chair. So technically you could have gone much faster all night on every pass but "chose" not to...... But then some grease from fried chicken made you slip off the transbrake and loose?

You have the best stories. Should consider selling them in book form.