[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

Formulajones,

I know you're a big fan of Paul and Jeff and you'll back them no matter what. I do the same for my friends. The motor blew up on the dyno because of a mistake with the pickup tube...that's a fact and a clue! Nobody did me any favors and I paid for everything. On top of the cost of the original build, I paid $1,900.00 in parts, fluids and tools to diagnose the motor (along with having the heads inspected). I was billed for sending the motor to Arizona and back. I was billed for the piston rings, bearings, polishing the crank and the light honing of the motor (I still don't have the receipts that I asked for). As for the carb...no. We worked out a deal when the windage tray had witness marks on it that I would pay $500 for a $1,400 Koerner carburetor. I was billed for that as well ($950.00 plus the $500 I sent them at the time) before they would release the motor. Before you co-sign for someone, you should know all the facts from both sides, not just what Paul or Jeff tell you. To get my motor back it cost me $2, 575 on top of the original build and on top of the $1,900 I had in parts. I wont applaud anyone for eating labor when it's the only right thing to do considering this experience.

You do realize the $1900 you spent on parts and fluids and tools to diagnose was your decision and no one else. The fact that you have no tools to do such things is not the fault of Paul or Jeff or anyone on the forum for that matter. So that amount should not even be considered. You went way too far trying to find something, sending heads to another machine shop etc...I would guess at the recommendation of friends, spending a lot of that money unnecessarily.

Again what you list here is not the whole story. I have the rest of your side of things from this entire thread, and then some. There is more to it, and out of respect to Paul and everyone else, it should be up to him whether he wants to divulge it here.

[Va68goat]

torqhead,

- Yes the distributor was shipped with it on the motor and we did not touch the distributor at all. (see attached photo)
- Plugs were installed
- The distributor, plug wires...nothing was touched, removed or even bumped when we installed the motor.
- I was told that the motor was dyno'd with this carb. For shipping purposes it was well packaged and boxed separate from the motor. (See attached photo: The photo with the motor and box is actually when we were getting ready for it to be shipped to Arizona. It came back packaged just as we sent it)

** Here is a question that I have that I can come up with an answer. For arguments sake, if the noise we are hearing NOW is the same noise that we heard BEFORE it went back to Arizona but was not heard on the dyno..How can anyone explain the video of the bad distributor bushing and the damage that is said to have occurred? If this is an ignition problem, vacuum problem or even a bad adjustment in the carb...why does the knocking noise sound exactly the same as before but now there's a bad MSD bushing, bearings, piston ring etc? I don't know enough about cars to even make up an answer for that question**

[torqhead]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

torqhead,

- Yes the distributor was shipped with it on the motor and we did not touch the distributor at all. (see attached photo)
- Plugs were installed
- The distributor, plug wires...nothing was touched, removed or even bumped when we installed the motor.
- I was told that the motor was dyno'd with this carb. For shipping purposes it was well packaged and boxed separate from the motor. (See attached photo: The photo with the motor and box is actually when we were getting ready for it to be shipped to Arizona. It came back packaged just as we sent it)

** Here is a question that I have that I can come up with an answer. For arguments sake, if the noise we are hearing NOW is the same noise that we heard BEFORE it went back to Arizona but was not heard on the dyno..How can anyone explain the video of the bad distributor bushing and the damage that is said to have occurred? If this is an ignition problem, vacuum problem or even a bad adjustment in the carb...why does the knocking noise sound exactly the same as before but now there's a bad MSD bushing, bearings, piston ring etc? I don't know enough about cars to even make up an answer for that question**

Good info. There are a number of variables that can affect an engine running in Arizona versus where you're at as well. You're in VA and not sure of your altitude but could have too much initial timing for where you're at. Just guessing at this point. A vacuum leak is plausible as well. Just throwing out ideas and hopefully you didn't take my long winded messages wrong as I was just trying to help you with cause and effect. We're all interested to find out what the h3ll is going on here in hopes it's something that can be solved relatively easily!

[Va68goat]

John Milner,

Yeah...I think I'm getting my hopes up with all this chatter about the timing. I wish I knew how to do this crap myself! It's frustrating but hell...it's been over two years...what's a couple of days or weeks!

[cnc]

Good to hear u r making some progress keep at it ...it'll be worth the wait...

[1967Tempest]

Post a video of a decent burnout!!

[cnc]

Or something like this

[Va68goat]

Formulajones,

Here we go.... I know Jeff or Paul would not disagree with anything that I have written here. Everything I have written is accurate. Another thing...what makes you think you're involved enough to feel as if you're moderating this situation? You don't know all the facts and thats obvious when you said that they paid for a good portion of the carb. I paid full price! Paul and Jeff are big boys..they can respond. Offer up intelligent information or just move on with you life. You're not involved.

PS: I asked Paul if I should get the heads inspected and he said "Yes". He even spoke with the machine shop. Again...you're misinformed and you interjected yourself into a situation where YOU don't know all the facts.

I'd like to get back on topic. Any other guys have any thoughts or ideas?

[Formulajones]

We are all entitled to think what we want, if you don't like what I have to say, too bad. A one sided post isn't informative and frankly nothing can be learned from it. We are all adults and can have our own opinions, so I'll continue to add what I feel is necessary, take it or leave it, I don't care.

Speaking of the heads, from what I've understood the reason Paul talked to the shop is because they didn't agree with the spring seat pressure and Paul had to reassure them they are what was needed in this engine.

Like I said before that noise sounds just like pre-ignition from too much timing at idle. Speaking of idle, Thanks to Paul's sharp eye, the reason it's not idling in your video is because you don't have a carb stud in there, and that particular carb needs a stud there or it creates a huge vacuum leak. So it's running in that photo, extremely lean as well.

[Va68goat]

We also eliminated the fuel pump and ran the motor off of the fuel bowls and the knocking noise was present. We also ran the motor briefly without the belts and the knocking noise was present.

[grivera]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

If there's anything weird happening, verify the balancer is indexed properly with a piston stop.

Many good suggestions in your post -however, this is something that I'm sure was done by Paul

Originally Posted by Va68goat

torqhead,

One thing to point out that may be important. The knocking noise sounds the same with Jeff Koerners carburetor as it did with the Street Avenger that was on the car before.

Based on the video alone the sound subsides with RPM. And, I wouldn't rule out an exhaust leak. However, you and Lynn are right there with it so I defer to his on site assessment. Does he also say it sounds the same?


JLMounce (Jason),
You make great points. We haven't checked the coil. That's something that Jeff brought up is for us to look at what I'm using now compared to what was not used in the dyno. That's the coil and the fuel pump. We will check out the coil but we did run a mechanics stethoscope on the fuel pump but there was no signature on the fuel pump. If we take the logic of checking what I am using now compared to what was not at the dyno, how could the distributor bushing be that damaged causing damage to the bearings, piston rings? The noise is the same as before.

Keep in mind different issues could be at play - for example you already found the interference issue with the windage tray early on - that would have caused a noise yet after adding clearance you still had the noise.

Originally Posted by Va68goat

We also eliminated the fuel pump and ran the motor off of the fuel bowls and the knocking noise was present. We also ran the motor briefly without the belts and the knocking noise was present.

As long as the fuel pump is physically attached to the engine it can make noise- even if you block flow.

[Va68goat]

torqhead,

Believe me...I appreciate anyone that is willing to provide their experience and knowledge. Before the motor was sent to me, I had a long conversation with Jeff regarding the elevation of Virginia compared to Arizona. I was kind of laughing because he was mentioning sea level, temperature, humidity and I had no clue how any of that played into a carb. He said he was getting some information from a local airport and that he would adjust the carb to being in Virginia. I appreciate you taking the time to contribute.

One thing to point out that may be important. The knocking noise sounds the same with Jeff Koerners carburetor as it did with the Street Avenger that was on the car before.


JLMounce (Jason),
You make great points. We haven't checked the coil. That's something that Jeff brought up is for us to look at what I'm using now compared to what was not used in the dyno. That's the coil and the fuel pump. We will check out the coil but we did run a mechanics stethoscope on the fuel pump but there was no signature on the fuel pump. If we take the logic of checking what I am using now compared to what was not at the dyno, how could the distributor bushing be that damaged causing damage to the bearings, piston rings? The noise is the same as before.

[promptcritical]

Oh boy. Bummer.

[Va68goat]

Yes Formulajones...we ALL know.......you're entitled!

Rough idle..but still the same knocking noise. The timing was set from the dyno and we did not adjust it. The carburetor was set at dyno and it wasn't adjusted either. We still have some adjusting to do and timing checked but this was the first start straight from the dyno. It had the same noise on the very first video of this thread!

Look carefully but you SHOULD notice that there is a bolt threaded into the carb where the stud would go so we wouldn't have a vacuum leak. Plus...Jeff sent a note which you can see here that ensured we would address that...which we did! I just took a picture of the bolt so there is no eyestrain! I'll post the pics on the next comment!

[Va68goat]

Can someone answer this?

If the noise we are hearing NOW is the same noise that we heard BEFORE it went back to Arizona but was not heard on the dyno..How can anyone explain the video of the bad distributor bushing and the damage that is said to have occurred? If this is an ignition problem, vacuum problem or even a bad adjustment in the carb...why does the knocking noise sound exactly the same as before but now there's a bad MSD bushing, bearings, piston ring etc? I don't know enough about cars to even make up an answer for that question. The noise is exactly the same with both carburetors as well.

If a distributor bushing has that much play and was identified as the source of the knock that caused all that damage, wouldn't the identical knocking noise be eliminated with replacing the distributor bushing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QOwVaJcQ_Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soh91OYexBM

[Va68goat]

JLMounce,
Yeah, I would try it but at this stage of the game, the last thing I want to do is something that I would regret. Way too much time and money invested. I will learn how to time a car but it's not going to be now.

Formulajones,
I don't get a "Bingo" for my response?

grivera,
Yeah...I'm getting antsy now. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens.

[torqhead]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

JLMounce,
Yeah, I would try it but at this stage of the game, the last thing I want to do is something that I would regret. Way too much time and money invested. I will learn how to time a car but it's not going to be now.

Formulajones,
I don't get a "Bingo" for my response?

grivera,
Yeah...I'm getting antsy now. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens.

Go buy you a dial back timing light. When hwystr455 shows up I’m sure he’ll be happy to show you how it works and you can check things next year.

[glhs#116]

Sadly, I'm in this boat myself. My "tick" is, I'm pretty sure, the portion of the dipstick tube that goes from the block to the windage tray half loose and contacting the crank counterweight. I'm not in a position to take the engine out now to drop the pan so I'm driving it. I'm watching everything like a hawk and I will probably do more frequent oil changes but at some point the only way to nail down a mystery issue is to let it develop somewhat through use..

Sam

[Va68goat]

mgarblik,

Man...we have checked for anything that could be causing that noise. We are still going to check some again BUT...how can anyone explain the damage to the distributor bushing, the damaged bearings and damaged piston rings, the block needing a light honing and the crank needing polishing? We've pulled the torque converter back at least 4 different occassions and that wasn't the problem. I was worried about the flex plate because thats the only thing that wasn't new. I bought a new one and sent it to Paul. He balanced it and once again...It wasn't the problem. I was told that it would be difficult to hear this noise from the booth of a dyno room. Thank you for the suggestions. We will recheck everything that could be vibrating, hitting..etc.

torqhead,
All of that makes sense to me but if this motor was just on a dyno a month ago, how could timing be in play? We didn't adjust the timing or the carb. We will definately get the right stud in the carb. Thanks for taking the time for the ideas..now that does actually help!

[torqhead]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

mgarblik,

Man...we have checked for anything that could be causing that noise. We are still going to check some again BUT...how can anyone explain the damage to the distributor bushing, the damaged bearings and damaged piston rings, the block needing a light honing and the crank needing polishing? We've pulled the torque converter back at least 4 different occassions and that wasn't the problem. I was worried about the flex plate because thats the only thing that wasn't new. I bought a new one and sent it to Paul. He balanced it and once again...It wasn't the problem. I was told that it would be difficult to hear this noise from the booth of a dyno room. Thank you for the suggestions. We will recheck everything that could be vibrating, hitting..etc.

torqhead,
All of that makes sense to me but if this motor was just on a dyno a month ago, how could timing be in play? We didn't adjust the timing or the carb. We will definately get the right stud in the carb. Thanks for taking the time for the ideas..now that does actually help!

I think it's Joe, and I'm only trying to add advice to hopefully help. I know you're a novice and hope this will help.

The damage to bearings, crank and also what caused the cylinders to have some light honing work is understandable. It is highly due to the bearing issue on the distributor as well as possibly pre-ignition caused by a spark issue from the distributor and/or setup. I know that covers a lot of bases but damage can occur quickly if you got detonation issues. Detonation will kill any motor, and I mean any motor quickly, it's just plain hard on bearings and if you get micro-millimeter debris in the oil it damages and scuffs crank and cylinders. Debris such as fine metal from that bad bearing gets in the oil and the moving parts rub this oil between them and causes damage. I would assume Paul/Jeff and these guys saw the damage and hence why they decided they needed to make it new again which is good.

I understand you are saying everything is the same, but we are asking or suggesting some things could be different as we don't know all the details. Some questions, and the list can go on... Did the motor ship with the distributor in and not touched from Arizona to you. Were the plug wires all installed, etc. Was none of this touched when you took the motor off the crate or whatever to hook it to the lift and then install it in the car, distributor/spark plug wiring/everything? Was the carburetor removed and reinstalled since it ran on the dyno? There's a lot of little items that could be involved here and why I'm asking as I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that those things had to be installed or potentially changed (unplugged and reconnected) between the last time it was run and now when it's in the car.

The way that motor jerks around, as I pointed out earlier, tells me something is wrong and I would tend to believe it's not mechanical. None of us like to hear or witness the challenges you're going through. Something definitely seems amiss here and I hope as I said previously your new friend from the forum that's going to come help will find the cause. I'm sure it'll be a relief and shocker all at the same time.