[Goatman]

We had 57 psi at 6100 on our last pull, which I already knew something was wrong. We started the motor up again and we had 7 psi. Very strange, that's why we thought that the oil pump had failed or maybe the pickup fell off.

All the bearings had the coating taken off of them and you could tell something got through them, but for same reason, the #5 was down to the copper and the crank was scored there. The rest of the crank is fine. No marks at all.

Checked the pistons and heads for signs of detonation and that was OK too, in fact the piston tops were mint. The dyno we were on has two ways of measuring A/F ratio's and they were both reading 12's and 13's and 14's throughout the pulls. Nothing out of the ordinary. The motor sounded real strong too. Plus, like I said before, it was using more than 100% of its air, even on the last pull.

There was hardly any metal in the bottom of the pan and I haven't touched the filter yet and probably won't as it doesn't really matter now.

Is it possible I might have missed soemthing? Yeah, I guess anything is possible. But it just seems to me that there would have been more evidence if something else was really going on.

Its a mystery to us, with the results being the same, I'm out of commision for at least a year.

[Scott Misus]

What brand crankshaft, bearings and rods were used?

What brand/model of oil pump was used?

Sounds like a clearance/oiling issue.

[ July 20, 2002, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: Scott Misus ]

[Rick Lightfoot]

This might be the effects of one of the "quality" oil pumps that are on the market today. Also, the quality of the bearings has slipped as of late also. Who did the assembly of the short block?

[71 T/A]

Scott,
You use new water pump bolts because they've been known to break after a while. I once snapped the head off of one that was an original factory bolt. It wasn't rusty and I didn't apply much torque before it broke. New ARP bolts for a water pump is a wise idea.

By the way, welcome back.

[Scott Misus]

71TA:

Thanks.

Here's a novel idea:

Take a nice, clean factory bolt, with good plating, wire-wheel the threads, slop some Nevr-Seez onto the threads and reattach the H2O pump.

I know it's not as glamorous as being able to say "ARP water pump bolts" instead of simply "water pump bolts", but it's certainly adequate.

For those of us with respect for the fastener choices made by engineers with far more intellect than we, it's kinda neat to see factory stuff in our Pontiacs whenever practical.

[Brian Baker]

Scott, will I be committing a faux pass for using the supplied bolts on my CSI electric pump? Or should I remachine the "shoulders" in the pumps bolt holes to fit the factory bolts?

[Scott Misus]

Are the CSI bolts of equal or better quality than something Pontiac produced 35 years ago?

[chris cook]

scott,

i have broken bolts before that looked perfect, but just put a little pressure on it and snap. then i get to have the plesure of getting broken bolts out of a block. who cares if you use factory bolts where ever you can. it is a pain in the A$$ to get snaped bolts out. as for "well i thought you said shiny stuff doesnt make it go faster." who cares what he said. he decided to get new bolts to attach a part and decided to just get the complete set and save money in the long run. SO JUST STOP SAYING CRAP ABOUT IF HE GOT NEW BOLTS THAT ARE CHROME.

[Held for Ransom]

Bruce, don't get me wrong, as I do not know you nor have I run my car 6 times at under 11 seconds to become an expert on racing. And definately no offense to Dick and the IA group, but I don't see how a piece or pieces of aluminum can go through the oil pump and the filter and cause this kind of damage. But, I will listen for/from knowledge.

[ July 21, 2002, 02:15 AM: Message edited by: Held for Ransom ]

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Ditto.

[gtoguy1967]

[/QUOTE] Take a nice, clean factory bolt, with good plating, wire-wheel the threads, [QUOTE]

i will take any of these that anyone has laying around as the ones on my car longer (and havent for years) look anything like this.

[Hot Rod]

Bruce,
I am real sorry that that this happened to you, what a Bummer!!!!
But there's more to the story here partner, you need to be looking at what failed here big guy!!!! The small pieces of alumnium just doesn't hold water, if I might ask what where the tolerance's for the rod bearings and did you mic every rod bearing halve in three places before you
installed them? It took me two sets of rod bearings to get the correct clearences in the engine that I am running now. One of the sets was incorrectly boxed. Your looking at what seems to be the obvious reason, and trying to look at it logically is not going to find the failure. I'am not there and have not looked at the engine but I will tell you this I would be taking some more measurments on the rods, bearings, rods,and taking a hard look at the crank because it's a lot harder than you think to spin #5 and that's what has peaked my interest here.
And yes I would like very much to know what happened and I give you a lot of credit for letting everybody know!

Scott,
Stop busting his balls on this subject can't you see that he is trying to help people that don't have any idea what is going on.
We all know how you feel about him you don't need to keep on kicking the horse we get it!!!!
As for the ARP bolts you know full well that they exceed the manufacture specs and are made to exact lengths engine and engine specific.

Keep on looking and let us all know!

Rodney

[ July 21, 2002, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Hot Rod ]

['ol Pinion head]

No "kicking the horse while he's down", Rodney. The "teacher" is supposedly "teaching us something here" .

Myself & many others would like to to hear about bearing tollerances not timing cover voodoo.

[ July 21, 2002, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: ol' Pinion head ]

[Goatman]

Rodney, I'll see what I can do.

As for the rest of the clowns. You need to understand that this is the first scrap if ammunition they've ever been able to get on me......ever. There are a bunch of guys here and there who are looking for payback, big time! I didn't assemble the motor, so I don't understand why they think for a minute that this reflects on me somehow. But, when you're grasping for straws, sometimes you have to take the short ones.........

I didn't have to post this, but I did, knowing full well that the idiots here and on the Pee-Pee tepee would do what they've done. I guess no one else has ever lost a motor before? Good thing guys like Grumpy Jenkins or Arnie Beswick have never lost a motor. Guys don't like my style, well guess what, this posting BS just turned it up a notch, I won't go away, that's for sure.

Either way, this is a small set back on the road of life. I know it won't be the first, so does everyone else who has ever built a race car. These facts you'll quickly find everyone ignoring when they respond to this.

The main "trouble" seems to be with one guy who hasn't been to the track since 1992, when he ran 15's and hasn't had the heart or intestinal fortitude to go back or build something else. This makes me laugh every time I think about it. This same guy questions someone as to why they don't use factory bolts in a race car and then wonders why he gets treated like Jerry Lewis is holding a telethon for him.............

Jealousy will get you no where, and Scott Misus is a living, breathing example of this. The rest of the guys can enjoy themselves too, because once I'm up and running again, you know and I know that this will be repaid over and over and over again.

Keep it coming guys, its going to come back on you when my time comes! I love it!

[ July 21, 2002, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: Goatman ]

[2FAST4U]

Scott, i too am using the "Looly-Loo" chrome ARP water pump bolts on my 455 as I too purchased the ARP engine bolt set! If they are offered in the set...why not use them? Does it hurt any? Why play Russian Roulette? Factory bolts is the silliest way I've heard to try and keep you classic car looking original, when meanwhile you fendorwells are all cut out and the hood is fibeglass!

...and especially when a car is painted Chevy- Hugger Orange, what's the use? [img]smile.gif[/img]

P.S. We can all sit behind our computers while sipping on a Beer and criticize the events that took place when the motor failed....but the fact of the matter is we are not standing over the motor and and inspecting it like Goatman & Dick to get a good feel....so until you do, politely question- but don't criticize!

[george kujanski]

I've been reading this and I'll add my 2 cents.
1. The timing cover thing is an interesting point; good info for the rest of us to watch out for.
2. Did a dissassembly of the oil pump show evidence of aluminum particles?
3. If I had an ARP set of bolts during assembly, I would certainly use them.

Lets help out with positive sugesstions so we can all get to the bottom of the problem and hopefully avoid costly mistakes.

Regards, George

[Scott Misus]

Originally posted by 2FAST4U:


but the fact of the matter is we are not standing over the motor and and inspecting it like Goatman & Dick to get a good feel....so until you do, politely question- but don't criticize!

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Polite questions (still unanswered):

What crankshaft, bearings and rods were used?
What brand/model oil pump was used?
What were the main/rod bearing clearances?
What were the rod side clearances?

If it's an oil contamination failure, why didn't the oil filter pick up the particles first?

If it's an oil contamination failure, why was only one journal damaged?

Who assembled the short block?

Seven polite questions.

Any answers?

Goatman: If you wish to insult me, please move it to Private Message.

Thank you.

[ July 21, 2002, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Scott Misus ]

[Goatman]

GK, I didn't tear down the oil pump or oil filter yet. There was a piece of the timing cover missing and it wasn't in the screen and wasn't in the pan. I'm assuming that parts of it are in the filter and possibly the pump. I will be picking up all the parts tomorrow from IA and may possibly look into the situation a little bit later in the week.

I would answer the rest of the questions from others, but I believe that the answers will somehow be used to denegrate myself or Indian Adventures in some way, shape, or form even though there was nothing wrong with any of the parts before we started, since the short block was unchanged minus a set of bearings and rod bolts from least year.

And just as I thought, the rest of the clowns are now silent after I laid down a little wisdom at their feet.........................

[Roar]

What # was it on the cylinders and pistons that went ?
...................
U see I just dont get that the alu will go trough the oilfilter unless there arent something wrong with the filter.
Another thing the rods had new ARP bolts. You havent assembled the engine your self so I dont expect an answer to this, but those ARP bolts are not so great as people believe they are. Wrong torque procedure and they are way off. And this will show up very fast to.
But why the cylinder walls and piston scores ? Thats why i am curios to what Cylinder # it is.
Could it infact be bearing materiale that have scored the cylinders ?
Or is the cylinder trouble the cause of it ?
Since u havnt assembled it your self , the builder can have made an error that you arent aware of. That happens to us all sooner or later.

[ July 21, 2002, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: Roar ]

[STripleduce]

Was the pump dis assembled and cleaned before install? Reason I ask is Because I'm currently rebuilding my bottom end due to bearing failure.Upon inspection of my pump after wards I found the gears& face plate badly scoured.No debry found in pickup or problems w/screen.As I received my new pump I dis assembled it and found aproximatly a quarter T-spoon of metal shaving in the by-pass which could easily get past the filter by-pass on a cold startup and cause severe damage.The pump was a Mellings SD (foret P#)new not reman.My bearing failure was on 4 & 5.