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Baron Von Zeppelin · 10-07-2005, 12:56 AM

On the M/T Hemi heads, what bolt pattern was used for the intakes. I am guessing it was the "1964 and older" style pattern. I have only seen blower intakes offered - so far as what little I have seen yet. OR did M/T offer both patterns over a period of time, OR did he use his own particular intake bolt pattern and port design/alignment ??

While we're at it, can Ram 3 or Ram 4 exhaust bolt up to the head?

Just curious in case I ever stump my toe on a pair in someones garage or shop and they offer to trade or sell. Going by what I can tell in pictures - nothing looks typical Pontiac design on either side regarding ports.

Educate us, please.

Jack Gifford · 01:41 AM

Intake and exhaust sides of the M/T hemi heads are unique. Might have some paper patterns I could post here if I find them.

Update: Found an intake pattern- I'll upload a partial scan of it. Can't find an exhaust pattern right now.

slowbird · 10-07-2005, 08:59 AM

What is the port size of the Hemi heads? Height and width of the intake port at the port opening.

tom s · 10-07-2005, 09:27 AM

Jack,I was told all the DS1001 blocks that got out were rejects.Mine proved it.The lifter bores had a core shift and blew out when doing bushings.The drain that went from the valley to the dist had a void,we had to make a sleeve and flair at both ends.There were many leaks inside and out side in both water and oil.The rear main had bad machining and was egg shaped.Have thousands of dollars invested AFTER paying a lot for it.The sleeves are shrunk in.I was also told not to make any HIGH HP with them.For everything involved,if you must have alu,get the IA/Butler block for hi po use.Tom

Jack Gifford · 10-07-2005, 07:27 PM

Thanks a lot Tom. I'll make sure Rob reads your DS1001 comments before proceeding with his.

Jack Gifford · 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NHRASuperStock455SD

I was watching a show one night....low and behold a tractor with 3 normally aspirated engines. It won it's class in tractor pulling, and it had 3 455SD motors on it. I couldnt believe it.

I bought the tape! It was way cool. Just thought it was relevant to that other tractor.

And here I try to make HP out of them, lol

Lynn

Yeah, that's cool! What part of the country? Used to be a Pontiac-powered Oliver in econo-mod class in ASTTQ (Quebec), but I never came across a Pontiac-powered mod tractor.

Not sure I understand your last sentence- you don't think pulling is all about power?

Baron Von Zeppelin · 10-07-2005, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pontiac jack

Not sure I understand your last sentence- you don't think pulling is all about power?

NHRA SD455 was just acting innocent/ignorant to spite any past or potential critics about what he runs. He makes Lots of power and we have to know the tractor was making Big Power to win a pulling competition. And in a naturally aspirated class at that.

Three SD455 engines on one vehicle is about the wildest thing I have heard lately. Would like to see that clip as well. Mr.Haney never sold tractors like that - too bad for Mr.Douglas. (circa Green Acres)

Baron Von Zeppelin · 10-07-2005, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pontiac jack

Intake and exhaust sides of the M/T hemi heads are unique. Might have some paper patterns I could post here if I find them.

Update: Found an intake pattern- I'll upload a partial scan of it. Can't find an exhaust pattern right now.

Thanks bunches for the template and description Jack. Nothing like standard.

Do the M/T heads require a special cam configuration? Sort of like how the Ram V does due to valve placement not being the stock E I I E E I I E. Sorry about all the questions - at least you have parts and answers. Thanks Jack

Steve Barcak · 10-08-2005, 12:15 AM

Neat thread on M/T HEMI stuff!
A few things....
Was there actually a M/T '63 catalog? I have 3 M/T catalongs. 2 completely different ones both marked '62. The earlier edition shows the Pontiac Hemi heads unmachined and not available yet. The later '62 one shows them ready and available. The most common one is the '64 catalong/handbook which shows them finished and also available for 392 and FE applications. These are great catalogs and they show up from time to time at swap meets and , of course, ebay. I recommended buying a copy they are very interesting to say the least.
I think the rarest part is the intake and the ex rockers. There seems to be a fair amount of heads around but few ( maybe 2?) complete original M/T motors.
I have 7 of the heads myself.
One of the motors is coming along and is ready for balancing and will go together this winter. I changed the crank and stroke and rod type and length too. I will also do some upgrading on the valve train as well.
All M/T Hemi Pontiacs from the day were blown. I have seen no carb or inj intakes for them. The catalogs do not show such an item. They were designed to run in the top and unlimited classes and to compete with the best at the time. Anything other than a blown version was probably built independently of the M/T deal. The Ford M/T Hemi was available with a crossram 2-4 set up. A friend has the '63 M/T Galaxie with a running M/T Ford HEMI. As if the Pontiac Hemi was rare enough, the Ford Hemi is even more so.

As for needed custom parts that are different from a standard Pontiac, of course the cam will be different as the HEMI has all independent intake and exhaust ports. The valve train stands and ex rockers are unique too as is the intake. Pistons too because of the valve location.
I will be using of the the suppossed 'blem' Factory alum V blocks to replace the strong early 389 blocks in my blown nitro burning FED until my forged billet blocks are ready to replace it. I have reinforced it considerably and still have some more to do. I think it will hold up fine. We'll see how it does as time allows.
Someone ought to start some sort of registry of just how much Pontiac M/T HEMI stuff is really out there. I would guess there are 30-50 sets of heads. Maybe a dozen intakes and even less valvetrain related parts.
My next Pontiac Hemi will be a bit different and will use custom T & D type shaft rockers instead of the standard 2 shaft arrangement and will run, of course, on Nitromethane in the fueler. This first one is just a gas burner.
I will try to down load a pic here of the M/T valve train if it takes.
For those interested in HEMI stuff, I try to keep my web site current as to what I am working on and as things go together. There is M/T info on 3 of my pages- 1. "my race cars", 2. "Pontiac History" and 3. "Boats".
I can't wait to fire them up and play with them. What a treat that will be! I should have one ready and running to show at my next Pontiac Heaven event in Phoenix on Sat April 1. All Real Pontiac fans are welcome and encouraged to attend. I had hoped to have it running at this years event but, the crank wouldn't pass mag and it had an odd stroke. Because of that, it took time to get a replacement and suitable crank and then a custom set of Crower billet rods was also added. Well worth the delay to have the peace of mind that there are top notch parts in that exotic and ultra rare motor.
Steve Barcak www.pontiacheaven.org

Sunshine State Shaker · 10-08-2005, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Three SD455 engines on one vehicle is about the wildest thing I have heard lately.

You need to get out more, boy.

Jack Gifford · 10-08-2005, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowbird

What is the port size of the Hemi heads? Height and width of the intake port at the port opening.

Found some old notes which show intakes 1 7/16"W x 2 1/4"H and exhausts 2 1/4"W x 1 3/4"H. I can't confirm that these are the correct numbers with my hemi still all together. I'll try to remember to look at my spare head soon.

Jack Gifford · 01:38 AM

Barcak- You must know something that the rest of the world doesn't, if you're going to drive those hemi valves from a single "T&D-type" shaft. How about a sketch?

What about the Crower/Algon-style port injectors that Dan Cholak of Florida had for the hemi- I thought I remembered they were made by Mickey?

Why steel rods? Why not be "kind and gentle" to the engine by using aluminum?

You said "...original M/T hemi intake & exhaust rockers...", but I'm not aware that he made any intake rockers. All the hemi's I know of used stock 392 Chrysler cast-steel intake rockers- which won't ever break except following an exhaust rocker breakage on a blower-motor at full power.

As far as complete original M/T hemi Pontiacs, the only one I ever heard about in the last twenty years was the iron-block blower engine that Dave Stoll had for sale back around 1990. I think it was built on one of the three(?) special iron blocks that Pontiac cast for Mickey- thicker at the tops of the valley, to keep pushrod notches from breaking into the water jacket. Dave said it was bought complete from Mickey in about 1963. Anybody know its whereabouts?

I'm sure that many Pontiac fans will look forward to seeing/hearing your hemi run!

Steve Hoog · 10-08-2005, 09:01 AM

Now this thread is getting very interesting. If I'm not mistaken Steve Barcak also has some of the factory 63 ish aluminum SD heads? WOW

Sunshine State Shaker · 10-08-2005, 09:14 AM

Those were 1960 MT aluminum D ports. I think he's gotten rid of them by now. Tom S. has a pair on a complete running aluminum motor in his '63 Lemans convert.

SSS

misterp266 · 10-08-2005, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Barcak

Neat thread on M/T HEMI stuff!
A few things....
Was there actually a M/T '63 catalog? I have 3 M/T catalongs. 2 completely different ones both marked '62. The earlier edition shows the Pontiac Hemi heads unmachined and not available yet. The later '62 one shows them ready and available. The most common one is the '64 catalong/handbook which shows them finished and also available for 392 and FE applications. These are great catalogs and they show up from time to time at swap meets and , of course, ebay. I recommended buying a copy they are very interesting to say the least.
I think the rarest part is the intake and the ex rockers. There seems to be a fair amount of heads around but few ( maybe 2?) complete original M/T motors.
I have 7 of the heads myself.
Someone ought to start some sort of registry of just how much Pontiac M/T HEMI stuff is really out there. I would guess there are 30-50 sets of heads. Maybe a dozen intakes and even less valvetrain related parts.

Steve, Thanks for adding to this thread, haven't heard from you in a while. Still hoping to see your fuel car at Bakersfield. I have the M/T handbook and have never seen the others. I also have a magnesium blower intake and a set of exhaust rockers as well as two sets of heads. I've been trying to find out how many people have heads and think it's a great idea to keep track somewhere. Steved400 has a pretty good web site and is going to add a hemi section. Maybe he can set up a registry for stuff. Didn't know you had a DS1001 block. I'll have to talk to you about that one as that's what I have and planned to use with my hemi heads. TomS had some negative input on it but I still think it would be OK with some work.

Rob...

Steve Barcak · 10:25 AM

Jack-
T & D is now making their shaft system for the 392/417. You can see it on their web site or email the for a pic. I am going to build my own version. They have been working well now in Nostalgia Top Fuel and I have been studying them for my application. I stand corrected on the intake rockers, my mistype. What I menat to type was "intake manifold and ex rockers".
The original engine you refer to is the one I now have as best I know. I was informed by the previous owner is was bought new from M/T by him. He mentioned you when I bought the motor.
So, maybe I have the only original complete M/T Pontiac HEMI? I thought yours was also and original. no?
Steve Barcak www.pontiacheaven.org

Steve Barcak · 10-08-2005, 10:22 AM

A few other things in missed on the last post.
The first engine ( gas ) is set up for marine use. I wanted the long reliabilty of the Crower billet rods for that application.
Of course the nitro motor will use alum rods. I like the C & A deep cycle rods.
Also the pic I posted shows cumstom ( non M/T ) billet rocker stands. The previous owner had breakage issues with the M/T cast stands so he built some stronger ones.
The early wedge alum heads I did sell about 15 years back. I only sold them after I bought my first set of M/T HEMIs. After getting a set of them, there didn;t seem ( at the time) to bother with anything else. Of course, there are a lot of good heads out now ( amen ). Still, the HEMI stuff has so much potential that I do not feel has been reached. Especially blown with nitro. We'll see.
I don't post as much as before. I do like to but it is very time consuming and I am fortunate to have many cool projects to keep me busy and happy.
Steve Barcak www.pontiacheaven.org

theoldone · 10-08-2005, 11:42 AM

THAT'S the heads I want- right there

how much for those ??

tom s · 10-08-2005, 11:52 AM

Steve,I was told by Fritz I believe that the factory cast 3 special blocks for the hemi project.They added meat where the block needed to be ground for pushrod clearance.I will see Fritz tomorrow and reconfirm.Steve van Dyn has one for sure and a lot of other hemi stuff.How is the progress on the DS1001 block I sold you coming?Jack,that is the block I called you about a few years ago to get machined.After not finding anyone that wanted to touch it I sold it to Steve.Tom

misterp266 · 10-08-2005, 12:03 PM

Tom, I tried to get Steve Van Dyn to sell me some hemi stuff when he apparently cleaned out Mickey's shop. Didn't want to part with anything. Do you know what he has and what he's done with it? Like Steve Barcak said, it'd be nice to keep a registry of all the "good stuff" out there!

Old one, how much ya got?

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