[GTOGEORGE]

Gee Curt where do YOU draw that Pontiac line? I gave you mine a set of heads that will BOLT to a Factory or Aftermarket Pontiac Block…….hell, if you want to glue them on I wouldn't care. The KEY is Pontiac Block.


GTO George

[cgeise]

I said it wasn't an easy subject -- I think if the average gear head can look at it and see its a Pontiac - so be it - If it looks like a duck - sounds like a duck and smells like a duck ----------- Its a duck. Maybe we are a dieing breed -holding on to old ideas for the sake of nostalgia -- but thats not all bad.

[cgeise]

next time im at the track - i'll stand at the gaurde rail and yell - -go you genaric bastard :-)

[scooter1966]

I dont understand the reason to worry about if everything bolt up properly, i mean hell if you are going to step it up in serious power your not going to use the same performer or factory intake or exhaust. I think we need to let the ones build/design what is needed to win so i can stop hearing the old phase " why dont you put a small block in it" at the local track. I say as long as the timing cover and valley pan bolt up that should be it.

... not that i can afford to buy anything new at this time.

[Skip Fix]

I guess I'm double cursed Pontiacs and 409s!

[Brian Baker]

I can't believe 15 years after I outed him for the fraud that he is, that people are still giving him the time of day in the Pontiac community.

[LiL Jack]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kinsler

I would love to see BrandX vs Jack at norwalk next year!!!!

I fixed it for you.

Aim for the top!!

[LiL Jack]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I agree with your comments totally, Curt.

Deal is, it was not that many years ago that RAM AIR IV camshafts and heads was the "Hot Chit" for a Pontiac guy. The Chebby and Ford guys were on version # 37 and 49 of their programs (Ford Guys like to constantly change chit, whether it works or not.)

The Pontiac Guys were stuck on 1971-73 level parts for the most part. Stock 455 SD head would flow about 235 cfm out of the box and a ported RA-IV maybe 300 cfm.

The Chebby boys have their street head from Dart with a 350+ cfm for cheap from Summit, Jegs, etc and a lot better ones from others ported.

So basically a few bought the aftermarket blocks, the better Edelbrock and KRE heads,
etc but compared to the Chebby/Ford market was a drop in the bucket.

Why is this? Because the aftermarket stuff basically looked identical (and functioned identical) to the traditional stuff. No new thinking going on. No new thinking, where is the market. You will not get any cross-over type guys from the Ford/Chebby camps.
If anything the LS engine stole members from the traditional camp, (STILL A GM ENGINE VS BUYING A HEAVEN FORBID FORD ENGINE .

So in my mind you have a whole bunch of loyal Pontiac people rooting for a very small number of guys putting down a number. Art Peterson, The McKennys, McCarthy Bros, Arnie, etc from the old days vs hundreds from the Chebby and Ford camps.

SOS is the key word. (Same Old Stuff). No one today brags about their HOT ROD 386 level computer with 1 meg of ram. They want the $$$$ Top End Gaming stuff that people are bringing out daily. That is where the money is. So you basically lost any new guy who wants to race unless the guy is a child of an old Pontiac family and races the brand because "Dad owned a GTO or F-Bird"

So either you can get on the bus with the other "gaming" type guys with new level "Pontiac parts" or you will die like the 386 computer did and PMD did.

May not be the NEW STANDARD Curt, but I will tell you that you will not be competitive as a large group staying where you are at today. Boost is new for most Pontiac Guys (Except for Arnie and Marty Palbykin). Ask Travis, Rodney, Cooper or Welter what their chances are to win a large race more than once with the traditional stuff vs a Ford or Chebby team.

You can talk about it but the bus has already left. Pontiac is Dead.

But my point is "That was YESTERDAY, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO TODAY? JC'S AND DON'S DEALS ARE ONE OF THE FEW FORWARD THINKING DEALS OUT THERE.

Does either one actually look like that old RA-V stuff that costs $10K for a purist (bare NOS cores). NO BUT THE STUFF WILL ACTUALLY WORK AND MAKE POWER and be COMPETITIVE.

Tom Vaught

Very well said!

It's great that some out there push the envelope with smart people to push the Pontiac community forward!

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by cgeise

Im not claiming to have the definitive answer, And I am the first to embrace inovation. All I am saying is I think there needs to be line where it is either a Pontiac -- or its not. Kinda like the athlete that wants to compete as a women ----- but tests as a Man. George, your condition that if it bolts to a Pontiac block its a Pontiac, what if the lifter bores are moved - additional head bolts are added and it has a one off type crank to make it all come together, and you bolt some Sonny's semi hemi heads on that bad boy - Is it a Pontiac ?? And Tom, lets face it, there are way more index or bracket class racers than there are heads up -its just the reality of it all, so is the absolute ultimate combo needed to be able to compete in those classes needed--No. Its the same in the Chev camp -- is a 5.3 in bore space 11.2 in tall deck really a chevrolet when it sports symetrical aftermarket heads ??
They are porpous built race engines -- far and away from Chev's. And if you bolted a set of stock RA V heads on that block -- is it a Pontiac ?? Its very convoluted to say the least.

Curt, Using George's definition of a "Legal Pontiac Engine" I could easily bolt these SOHC Ford 427 heads on an All Pontiac Block (Lowering the center lower head bolt drilling .375"). Bore spacing for the Ford 427 is with-in .005" inches of the Pontiac block.

I could call it a legal Pontiac Block and Heads using George's theory (All of the parts are available today new)

Tom Vaught

[twooldgoats]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

I can't believe 15 years after I outed him for the fraud that he is, that people are still giving him the time of day in the Pontiac community.

And this is what it takes to get you out of hibernation, Brian.

Jim

[Tom Vaught]

Let the "Old Bear" rest, Jim.

Jobs and Kids will wear you out quick.

Tom Vaught

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Curt, Using George's definition of a "Legal Pontiac Engine" I could easily bolt these SOHC Ford 427 heads on an All Pontiac Block (Lowering the center lower head bolt drilling .375"). Bore spacing for the Ford 427 is with-in .005" inches of the Pontiac block.

I could call it a legal Pontiac Block and Heads using George's theory (All of the parts are available today new)

Tom Vaught

Tom,
What did the best set of (FE) SOHC heads you ever saw flow? Today there has to be a better way than that 10 miles of chain.

Stan

[Blued and Painted]

The Japs have moved away from belts and back to chains with guides, for cam accuracy. I was running a v block timing belt engine with the cover off. The belt would "whoop up" between the cams at higher rpm,s even with a heavy spring loaded oil dampened tentioner/slack adjuster.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Blued and Painted

The Japs have moved away from belts and back to chains with guides, for cam accuracy. I was running a v block timing belt engine with the cover off. The belt would "whoop up" between the cams at higher rpm,s even with a heavy spring loaded oil dampened tentioner/slack adjuster.

The "10 mile" comment was about the fact that they are driving both cams with the same chain and how long it is.

Stan

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Curt, Using George's definition of a "Legal Pontiac Engine" I could easily bolt these SOHC Ford 427 heads on an All Pontiac Block (Lowering the center lower head bolt drilling .375"). Bore spacing for the Ford 427 is with-in .005" inches of the Pontiac block.

I could call it a legal Pontiac Block and Heads using George's theory (All of the parts are available today new)

Tom Vaught

I would welcome that. It's the same as what Mac did back in the day with the OHC 421...only way better.

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by twooldgoats

And this is what it takes to get you out of hibernation, Brian.

Jim

Admittedly, I haven't been around lately. Been busy with the family and have had no money for the funny (hence, coming here makes that situation depressing). My 9 year old nephew has been with us since late March and we're embroiled in a custody battle right now over him with my mother-in-law. I looked at the lawyer fees I've spent so far this year and think "gee...there's a freshened tranny and a fire suppression system for the funny car". This boy needs someone to stand up and fight for him and give him a chance in life, nobody else is, so the funny gets pushed back a little farther.

[bpenrod]

Way to step up Brian, and good luck!

[Wareagle]

No problem here - Factory Pontiac Block - IA II - MRI Block both are pure Pontiac to me from what I've seen their doing fine

[Skip Fix]

Tom I always thought those SOHC motors looked cool -blow funny cars and stuffed in a Maverick Mod Pro/ProStock.

Many of the 409 guys are stil where us Pontiac guys were a few years back like you said Tom. Got to be iron heads factory intake and an old design Isky cam with mild duration. Then you have Lamar Walden that had billet Z-11 heads 20 years ago and an aluminum block now with World.

I like it guys push the envelope but agree most of us want a simpler motor but do use some of the stuff trickle down.

[twooldgoats]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

Admittedly, I haven't been around lately. Been busy with the family and have had no money for the funny .......

Good for you. Family should always come first.

Jim