[glhs#116]

Well, since there is a lot of talk about it, here goes. A while back after rebuild number one I had a loud tick like this. Traced everything I could think of. Finally in desperation I replaced the cam and lifters. The tick remained. I eventually swapped on the old valve springs and was met with blessed silence.

Happy ending, right. Er, wrong. So I ordered new springs since my old ones were so old I thought they were maybe original. New springs, still no tick. But not much later she’s running rough. Two wiped lobes on the cam (actually they never ticked but it ran rough). Then I dropped a valve. That set me way back.

So since I wasn’t planning on having to buy heads I used this 703 cam because I had it and it “should” work. But the tick makes me nervous and I feel the cam is not the best choice. I would be more comfortable replacing it but would want to be pretty sure what I got instead was more suitable.

Sam

[78w72]

he said he knows the cam is a little small for the compression but its what he had. sounds like hes hoping to find the cause of the tick first before worrying about changing the cam. therefore, hes content with what he has for now...

sounds to me like you're just reaching for things to argue with, you have cherry picked comments from myself & others & completely disregard ideas from "other characters" that i'm willing to bet have far more experience & knowledge with these things than you do. yet when we state facts about h/s lifters having a sewing machine noise or make a reasonable suggestion to try & diagnose other causes, (fuel pumps, exhaust leak, bad valve guides, etc etc) your only suggestions are to just replace the cam/lifters... throwing parts at it! or saying sewing machines dont tick... the common term for h/s rocker noise is sewing machine operation or "tick."

i didnt mention matching the cam to his engine, the comment was pertaining to you suggesting he change cams to get a "better" cam & fix the tick, i said that was fine to suggest a cam matched to his engine/compression. the goal of matching a cam is to match it to the engines specs & the cars usage. both aspects are important, not just usage.

no need to quote me again, i was only replying to the topic of this thread, sorry if you dont agree with me or others.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by glhs#116

Well, since there is a lot of talk about it, here goes. A while back after rebuild number one I had a loud tick like this. Traced everything I could think of. Finally in desperation I replaced the cam and lifters. The tick remained. I eventually swapped on the old valve springs and was met with blessed silence.

Happy ending, right. Er, wrong. So I ordered new springs since my old ones were so old I thought they were maybe original. New springs, still no tick. But not much later she’s running rough. Two wiped lobes on the cam (actually they never ticked but it ran rough). Then I dropped a valve. That set me way back.

So since I wasn’t planning on having to buy heads I used this 703 cam because I had it and it “should” work. But the tick makes me nervous and I feel the cam is not the best choice. I would be more comfortable replacing it but would want to be pretty sure what I got instead was more suitable.

Sam

That's exactly where I was so I went conservative on the cam after the bad new 703 with the lifters that came with it. .

Sure wasn't going with anything like what didn't work.

I'm really happy with 2157 Edelbrock cam and the lifters that came with it.

The engine runs smooth, quiet(a blessing) and has great power from 0 to 100.

Have to be very careful with it now because you can break em loose in any gear.

I do have to use two bottles of 108 octane booster per tank with 93 octane to stay away from spark knock.

That's after I timed it by ear. It pinged bad setting it with the light. lol

[TAQuest]

I did get a few PM's saying that you had to be careful which cam you used with these heads. Lots of stories of failures.

The Edelbrock web site states that the 2157 is suitable and well tested so I felt that I was taking all the guess work out of it.

It's the season to drive here and you don't want any guess work. Guessing is for winter. Glad the wrenching is over and we can drive it now.

[dmac]

Until and unless you've had a tiny exhaust leak that sounded like a tick, you won't know how it sounds exactly like a valve train tick. So simple to check this before disassembling motor and changing valves, or rockers, or lifter, or cam. As simple as an oil change, maybe simpler if using some oil additive works like someone suggested. An exhaust leak tick will also be in time with the cam rotation and can sound like it is coming from even the opposite side of the car.

I'm one in favor of trying the simplest things first.

[scott70]

Originally Posted by dmac

Until and unless you've had a tiny exhaust leak that sounded like a tick, you won't know how it sounds exactly like a valve train tick. So simple to check this before disassembling motor and changing valves, or rockers, or lifter, or cam. As simple as an oil change, maybe simpler if using some oil additive works like someone suggested. An exhaust leak tick will also be in time with the cam rotation and can sound like it is coming from even the opposite side of the car.

I'm one in favor of trying the simplest things first.

Yup

[Jay S]

I would back off the lash while the engine is setting there idling. Going through each adjuster trying to make the noise louder then tightening it back down. You should be able to change to sound of the tick if it is coming from the cam or lifters. Jay

[glhs#116]

Gentlemen,

Some good advice here. I guess I'm a little cocky from the last tick I tracked down. I'd gone through all the exhaust leak stuff and I did tighten up on everything here again for this one. I've also relashed all the valves. I've also felt all the rockers. But doing the back off and tighten thing is good advice (if messy) and I will try it to see if it points me anywhere.

Sam

[Jay S]

It is messy, hot, and not fun. I suggest turning the idle down pretty far and do one bank and leave the other valve cover on if your going to do it. Maybe take a screw driver up to your ear and listen for the noise and see if it is louder on one side and start with that side if you can tell anything. It sounds like you already know the tricks for tracking down noises though. Good luck.

[glhs#116]

OK. So not sure what is different this morning. Didn't have much time between getting up and heading to work. Spent that time on the vac advance. But I noticed something new.

Cold start (and it sure as hell isn't "cold" here -- nearly 100ºF) no tick. In fact, no tick when I messed with timing. No tick, in fact, until maybe three minutes into my drive. But then it was back loud and proud as ever.

It's never really gone. It's definitely "hey, what's wrong with your car?" noticeable. But it sure goes very quiet and almost gone by around 1600rpm. We have guests tonight. I'll just have to see how soon I can look at the rockers again..

Sam

[steve25]

The main thing you want to do at this point Sam so you can maybe sleep at night is to get the motor up to temp where it's ticking and then yank the plugs off one at a time to nail down that it's not a light rod knock.
The problem I see which is one I had with a 400 with a tick was this.
This one 400 of mine did just what yours is doing, in fact for some 2 years it was doing this .
Finally I had the time and use of a lift to yank the motor out in just one day and stuff new rod Bearings in which I though was the cause of the tick from my diagnosis.

Well it turned out all the Bearings looked good , not just the rods but I installed the new ones anyway.

As it turns out in my motor it was piston noise when the motor was hot, yes hot!

I continued to use that motor daily and beat on it daily with out issue for another 2 years!

This may be where your at now?

All of this being said Sam are you sure you do not have a cracked Exh Manifold, or a split in the flare of the seat area of the Exh pipe Where it butts up to the Exh Manifold?

Does one Exh Manifold still have the flap choke in it?

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by glhs#116

OK. So not sure what is different this morning. Didn't have much time between getting up and heading to work. Spent that time on the vac advance. But I noticed something new.

Cold start (and it sure as hell isn't "cold" here -- nearly 100ºF) no tick. In fact, no tick when I messed with timing. No tick, in fact, until maybe three minutes into my drive. But then it was back loud and proud as ever.

It's never really gone. It's definitely "hey, what's wrong with your car?" noticeable. But it sure goes very quiet and almost gone by around 1600rpm. We have guests tonight. I'll just have to see how soon I can look at the rockers again..

Sam

Same with my tick with the bad 703 and lifters. It came and went. Moved around. Checked everything including rockers. Did a pattern on the valve stem. Nothing stood out as the cause.

When we are in this position we have to do something. So I decided on switching the cam.

Maybe the lifters intermittently pump up and then leak and tick? When I adjusted the lifters a half a dozen times I noticed some were pumped up hard and some collapsed really easy. All I can do is guess now. What I do know is when I switched out the cam and lifters to the Edelbrock the noise went away. Maybe it's just that these heads are not compatible with the 703 cam. I asked around and couldn't find anyone with the round port and 703 combo to confirm the combo works together. Some said it would work and others said it may not. After this happened to both of our engines I'm thinking that the 703 isn't a good choice for these heads. I know it didn't work in mine for some reason. It definitely was the problem with mine.

[Cliff R]

Can't say as I've ever had a flat hydraulic cammed engine of my own that didn't have a "ticker" in the bunch someplace. I just have bad luck with that sort of thing for some reason.

Dating clear back to the very first 400 I had in the Ventura in the mid-1980's the new Crower 60240 cam and Crower lifters had one "ticker" that just refused to cooperate. I ran the engine for several years, adjusting it numerous times along the way and no matter where I set the pre-load it would just make noise when it felt like it. Sometimes it would clatter on a cold start, other times it didn't. Pretty consistently it made noise fully warmed up below apprx 1500rpm's, but I just lived with it and that engine powered the car for quite a few years and never gave any issues otherwise.

I did discover that running light pre-load as often recommended for setting up hydraulic cam set-ups didn't work well. Going to zero and an additional 1/2 turn or so didn't make the grade, ALL of the lifters were a tad noisy there. I ended up running them down one full turn, and aside from one stubborn lifter the others were dead quiet for the life of that engine.

For this and a few other reasons I decided to use Crower HIPPO solid roller lifters in my current build, and it's by far and above the quietest engine I've ever had sit between the fenders of any vehicle I've owned. With the last set at .005" cold it's dead quiet even fully warmed up, and despite folks kicking that set-up in the nuts (most have never tried it) it's been flawless now since around 2009, unless you count the failed set of full roller rocker arms I had to replace.

As a side note the Edelbrock 2157 cam is mentioned in this thread. Sam whatever you do stay as far away from that cam in your high compression 455 as possible. Cripe it requires two cans of 108 octane boost in a tank of 93 octane to even think about working in a smaller 400 build.....the big 455 will absolutely hate it and you'll have 8 pistons in the oil pan instead of one before you've got 200 miles on it......IMHO.......Cliff

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

Can't say as I've ever had a flat hydraulic cammed engine of my own that didn't have a "ticker" in the bunch someplace. I just have bad luck with that sort of thing for some reason.

Dating clear back to the very first 400 I had in the Ventura in the mid-1980's the new Crower 60240 cam and Crower lifters had one "ticker" that just refused to cooperate. I ran the engine for several years, adjusting it numerous times along the way and no matter where I set the pre-load it would just make noise when it felt like it. Sometimes it would clatter on a cold start, other times it didn't. Pretty consistently it made noise fully warmed up below apprx 1500rpm's, but I just lived with it and that engine powered the car for quite a few years and never gave any issues otherwise.

I did discover that running light pre-load as often recommended for setting up hydraulic cam set-ups didn't work well. Going to zero and an additional 1/2 turn or so didn't make the grade, ALL of the lifters were a tad noisy there. I ended up running them down one full turn, and aside from one stubborn lifter the others were dead quiet for the life of that engine.

For this and a few other reasons I decided to use Crower HIPPO solid roller lifters in my current build, and it's by far and above the quietest engine I've ever had sit between the fenders of any vehicle I've owned. With the last set at .005" cold it's dead quiet even fully warmed up, and despite folks kicking that set-up in the nuts (most have never tried it) it's been flawless now since around 2009, unless you count the failed set of full roller rocker arms I had to replace.

As a side note the Edelbrock 2157 cam is mentioned in this thread. Sam whatever you do stay as far away from that cam in your high compression 455 as possible. Cripe it requires two cans of 108 octane boost in a tank of 93 octane to even think about working in a smaller 400 build.....the big 455 will absolutely hate it and you'll have 8 pistons in the oil pan instead of one before you've got 200 miles on it......IMHO.......Cliff

He has the bigger cc heads than mine so it's comparable.

I error on the safe side by adding a lot of booster. Why not? It's cheap compared with my time and trouble fixing parts that suffer from detonation.

You can build a carb like a genius, have one of yours on my 69, but you can't make lifters not tick? Life is strange. I can build an engine without and funny ticks but I can't build a carb like you can. I think it's all about determination and my engines are not going to tick or I'm on it 24 7 until they sound right. Right now everything is right in my world, no funny sounds in any of my vehicles, priceless....

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

I did discover that running light pre-load as often recommended for setting up hydraulic cam set-ups didn't work well. Going to zero and an additional 1/2 turn or so didn't make the grade, ALL of the lifters were a tad noisy there. I ended up running them down one full turn, and aside from one stubborn lifter the others were dead quiet for the life of that engine.

I will definitely give that a try for giggles. I am at 1/2 turn preload at present..

Sam

[Formulajones]

Take Cliff's advice, he's absolutely right. DON'T put a tiny performer cam in that 455, you'll have all kinds of detonation problems you don't need. That cam was in no means ever intended for a big 455 with 10.5:1 compression.

Shoving a bunch of octane boost in the tank is a band aid fix that 99% of us on the forum here avoid with proper cam and compression choices. No one wants to carry a case of that stuff around in the car all the time or even bother worrying about it. Especially those of us that actually drive and race our cars.

[Cliff R]

I don't make the lifters or am I part of the quality control checking process, so it's outside of my control. They let just enough "tickers" slip thru that it's hit and miss with hydraulic lifters, especially since they sent production to Mexico, Korea and China couple of decades ago....FWIW

It is NOT comparable at all, 400 CID at 10 to 1 vs 455 CID at 10 to 1. The larger engine requires considerably MORE camshaft to basically do the same thing as far as dynamic compression is concerned. It's the laws of physics with these things, and something I've learned to work with over the years when selecting parts and tuning these engines.

Having to add two cans of 108 octane boost to a tank to give you a warm and fuzzy with pump gas simply means that you should have chosen the 2801 cam instead of the 2800. Adding 10 degrees duration would lower dynamic or effective compression in a 400 built effectively by close to a full point.......IMHO......Cliff

[Cliff R]

I'd add here that in theory it really shouldn't matter where you position the plungers in your hydraulic lifters as far as noise in concerned. This assumes the leak down rates between all of them are close and lifter to plunger tolerances within spec.

With that said in the real World setting the plungers with LESS oil under them simply means that if one or two leak down a little quicker than others with the engine fully heat soaked and oil thinned out, there is LESS room for it to make noise.

I'll also add that a little "ticking" in the valve train will not do any harm whatsoever. I've ran Rhoads lifters in these engines for tens of thousands of miles, ticking away nicely at idle and low RPM's and when we've pulled them down for freshening up or inspection nothing worn anyplace in the valve train. They might actually be easier on the lifter bottoms and cam lobes as they "soften" the effect some far as ramp speeds and take-up, etc.......Cliff

[Lee]

What weight oil are you running?

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Take Cliff's advice, he's absolutely right. DON'T put a tiny performer cam in that 455, you'll have all kinds of detonation problems you don't need. That cam was in no means ever intended for a big 455 with 10.5:1 compression.

Shoving a bunch of octane boost in the tank is a band aid fix that 99% of us on the forum here avoid with proper cam and compression choices. No one wants to carry a case of that stuff around in the car all the time or even bother worrying about it. Especially those of us that actually drive and race our cars.

A lot of folks around here use racing fuel. I just didn't feel like driving to that station at the time. There are only a few who try to run on pump gas. It's no biggie at all to use different fuel or additives.

I did build a low compression 428 to run on pump gas so I could run nitrous in my race car.

I have to run octane booster in my concourse bone stock numbers matching 69 400 Vert Bird. It's a normal thing.