[Va68goat]

I also forgot to mention that the last time we pulled the motor (Right before it went back to Arizona), we noticed damage to the oil pump shaft (Witness marks- I posted the pictures earlier). We switched the oil pump and the oil pump shaft, installed the motor again and it made the same noise.

Since the problem was discovered, all the diagnosis that we did, all the parts switched out were run by Paul first. My fear is that there is something majorly wrong with the motor. I know I'm very inexperienced with cars but I just feel that something is really wrong with this motor. I just think something was missed after it blew up on the dyno. When I sent the motor back and Paul found the bad distributor bushing he said and posted that the motor looked "great" after he disassembled it. He posted pictures of the bearings as well. Next thing I know, I'm told that Paul missed all the damage to the piston rings, bearings, crankshaft and the block needed a light honing. I think as easily as he missed "The recent damage", he could have missed the real problem. The oil pickup tube was not welded. That's something else that was "missed". From I'm told, that's a pretty standard thing to do and most guys do that because of the potential of that happening to these Pontiac motors.

I think it's the same noise. It may sound a little different because one video was in a garage and the other one was outside but in person...it's the same. My buddy who has been building Pontiac motors for over 37 years agrees. He's the guy that's been working on my car!

August 5th 2018: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeOqYtY0Dng

July 14th 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To57VTU11xM

Originally I was told that it would be too difficult to hear that noise in the dyno room but now....I'm told the motor was not making any noise on the dyno. This last time on the dyno was allegedly the 4th time it was run on the dyno!

[tom s]

Welding a oil pump shaft?I assume you mean the pickup?Tom

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

I also forgot to mention that the last time we pulled the motor (Right before it went back to Arizona), we noticed damage to the oil pump shaft (Witness marks- I posted the pictures earlier). We switched the oil pump and the oil pump shaft, installed the motor again and it made the same noise.

Since the problem was discovered, all the diagnosis that we did, all the parts switched out were run by Paul first. My fear is that there is something majorly wrong with the motor. I know I'm very inexperienced with cars but I just feel that something is really wrong with this motor. I just think something was missed after it blew up on the dyno. When I sent the motor back and Paul found the bad distributor bushing he said and posted that the motor looked "great" after he disassembled it. He posted pictures of the bearings as well. Next thing I know, I'm told that Paul missed all the damage to the piston rings, bearings, crankshaft and the block needed a light honing. I think as easily as he missed "The recent damage", he could have missed the real problem. The oil pickup tube was not welded. That's something else that was "missed". From I'm told, that's a pretty standard thing to do and most guys do that because of the potential of that happening to these Pontiac motors.

I think it's the same noise. It may sound a little different because one video was in a garage and the other one was outside but in person...it's the same. My buddy who has been building Pontiac motors for over 37 years agrees. He's the guy that's been working on my car!

August 5th 2018: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeOqYtY0Dng

July 14th 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To57VTU11xM

Originally I was told that it would be too difficult to hear that noise in the dyno room but now....I'm told the motor was not making any noise on the dyno. This last time on the dyno was allegedly the 4th time it was run on the dyno!

You're leaving out some key details. The way that discussion went....

Paul only said that on initial tear down the bearings and rings looked okay because they still obviously had a light oil film on them. It wasn't until after he ran the parts through the washer where they could be inspected closer did he see the small particles imbedded in the bearings. The moly was flaked off the rings from detonation because the fact that the bushing was shot in the distributor jacked the timing all over the place, something that should have been easily found as I mentioned very early on in this thread.

So this wasn't something that Paul missed, it was something discovered upon cleaning and further inspection.

Jeff did not want to let this engine back out the door with bearings and rings like that, because that's not what you paid for, and I commend Jeff for that, stand up guy. However, the damage that occurred I think we can all agree did not start with Paul or Jeff. So you can't expect them to eat the bill on parts. They did however cover all labor and paid for most of your $1500 carb as well. More than fair.

[HWYSTR455]

I'm thinking along the lines of something with the ignition, be it a bad coil, incorrect wiring, timing, or in that area.

Another thought is a vacuum leak which is causing a gross lean condition.

The initial rough running as it started is an indicator, and THAT sounds like ignition to me.

I'm going to try to swing by there over the next week and take a look, bring a spare coil, and do a few checks. Thinking of isolating the ignition by going directly to the batt, and a new coil, leaving everything else disconnected. Will remove all the vacuum lines and plug them too.

.

[Va68goat]

Formulajones,

I know you're a big fan of Paul and Jeff and you'll back them no matter what. I do the same for my friends. The motor blew up on the dyno because of a mistake with the pickup tube...that's a fact and a clue! Nobody did me any favors and I paid for everything. On top of the cost of the original build, I paid $1,900.00 in parts, fluids and tools to diagnose the motor (along with having the heads inspected). I was billed for sending the motor to Arizona and back. I was billed for the piston rings, bearings, polishing the crank and the light honing of the motor (I still don't have the receipts that I asked for). As for the carb...no. We worked out a deal when the windage tray had witness marks on it that I would pay $500 for a $1,400 Koerner carburetor. I was billed for that as well ($950.00 plus the $500 I sent them at the time) before they would release the motor. Before you co-sign for someone, you should know all the facts from both sides, not just what Paul or Jeff tell you. To get my motor back it cost me $2, 575 on top of the original build and on top of the $1,900 I had in parts. I wont applaud anyone for eating labor when it's the only right thing to do considering this experience.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

Formulajones,

I know you're a big fan of Paul and Jeff and you'll back them no matter what. I do the same for my friends. The motor blew up on the dyno because of a mistake with the pickup tube...that's a fact and a clue! Nobody did me any favors and I paid for everything. On top of the cost of the original build, I paid $1,900.00 in parts, fluids and tools to diagnose the motor (along with having the heads inspected). I was billed for sending the motor to Arizona and back. I was billed for the piston rings, bearings, polishing the crank and the light honing of the motor (I still don't have the receipts that I asked for). As for the carb...no. We worked out a deal when the windage tray had witness marks on it that I would pay $500 for a $1,400 Koerner carburetor. I was billed for that as well ($950.00 plus the $500 I sent them at the time) before they would release the motor. Before you co-sign for someone, you should know all the facts from both sides, not just what Paul or Jeff tell you. To get my motor back it cost me $2, 575 on top of the original build and on top of the $1,900 I had in parts. I wont applaud anyone for eating labor when it's the only right thing to do considering this experience.

You do realize the $1900 you spent on parts and fluids and tools to diagnose was your decision and no one else. The fact that you have no tools to do such things is not the fault of Paul or Jeff or anyone on the forum for that matter. So that amount should not even be considered. You went way too far trying to find something, sending heads to another machine shop etc...I would guess at the recommendation of friends, spending a lot of that money unnecessarily.

Again what you list here is not the whole story. I have the rest of your side of things from this entire thread, and then some. There is more to it, and out of respect to Paul and everyone else, it should be up to him whether he wants to divulge it here.

[1967Tempest]

Once HWYSTR455 gets his hands on it, I’d like to see the after video.

[Va68goat]

Formulajones,

Again, you're a great friend to Paul and Jeff and I expect no less. I won't acknowledge your comments on this thread anymore because you're just a distraction and you're not contributing to solving the problem. You're not part of this equation so there is no use in you commenting. Me, Paul and Jeff are bummed about this and the last thing any of us need is someone that is trolling. Either help solve the problem or move on to another thread!

PS: When I mentioned having the heads inspected to Paul...Paul agreed and spoke to the shop!

[Formulajones]

If you don't want my comments I suggest you lay out all the details, not the one sided comments. Always 2 sides to the story, I only presented part of the other side so people can make an honest interpretation as to what's going on here. We don't want to lead an entire forum in one direction or otherwise this entire thread is useless to everyone.

Look at is as constructive, not negative. We all understand your frustration but pointing fingers will get you no where.

As far as solving the problem, I'll suggest exactly what I suggested very early on, which ended up being the issue the first time, however no one caught it. Too bad. That noise isn't necessarily a concerning noise like bottom end and I've heard it before in many engines. Usually it's a result of too much timing added with initial and/or vacuum thrown in the mix, which obviously is what was happening the first time with the worn distributor bushing jacking the timing all over the place which is why Paul found the moly knocked off the rings (ie:detonation) I believe Mister Pontiac's comments are in line with what I would do. Knowing Paul and knowing the entire story here, I'm 100% confident there was nothing missed in that engine that had anything to do with Paul or Jeff and the underlying issue is something going on after the engine is installed in the car. It's unfortunate you don't have the skill or knowledge to diagnose but I believe if someone that knows what they are doing goes over everything with a fine tooth comb you'll find the cause.

[Va68goat]

Formulajones,

Here we go.... I know Jeff or Paul would not disagree with anything that I have written here. Everything I have written is accurate. Another thing...what makes you think you're involved enough to feel as if you're moderating this situation? You don't know all the facts and thats obvious when you said that they paid for a good portion of the carb. I paid full price! Paul and Jeff are big boys..they can respond. Offer up intelligent information or just move on with you life. You're not involved.

PS: I asked Paul if I should get the heads inspected and he said "Yes". He even spoke with the machine shop. Again...you're misinformed and you interjected yourself into a situation where YOU don't know all the facts.

I'd like to get back on topic. Any other guys have any thoughts or ideas?

[Formulajones]

We are all entitled to think what we want, if you don't like what I have to say, too bad. A one sided post isn't informative and frankly nothing can be learned from it. We are all adults and can have our own opinions, so I'll continue to add what I feel is necessary, take it or leave it, I don't care.

Speaking of the heads, from what I've understood the reason Paul talked to the shop is because they didn't agree with the spring seat pressure and Paul had to reassure them they are what was needed in this engine.

Like I said before that noise sounds just like pre-ignition from too much timing at idle. Speaking of idle, Thanks to Paul's sharp eye, the reason it's not idling in your video is because you don't have a carb stud in there, and that particular carb needs a stud there or it creates a huge vacuum leak. So it's running in that photo, extremely lean as well.

[Va68goat]

Yes Formulajones...we ALL know.......you're entitled!

Rough idle..but still the same knocking noise. The timing was set from the dyno and we did not adjust it. The carburetor was set at dyno and it wasn't adjusted either. We still have some adjusting to do and timing checked but this was the first start straight from the dyno. It had the same noise on the very first video of this thread!

Look carefully but you SHOULD notice that there is a bolt threaded into the carb where the stud would go so we wouldn't have a vacuum leak. Plus...Jeff sent a note which you can see here that ensured we would address that...which we did! I just took a picture of the bolt so there is no eyestrain! I'll post the pics on the next comment!

[Va68goat]

Here you go...

[mgarblik]

My comment is directed to the engine noise in the car now. If the engine was run on a dyno 4 times and had no noise, but does have the noise when installed in the car, then the problem has to be something in the car or the way the engine is sitting in the chassis. Is everyone absolutely sure nothing is rubbing, vibrating, touching, sitting against, any other part of the body or chassis that can be transmitting normal engine vibration through the car and to your ear? I find it hard to believe that this engine would be such a world traveler, have been tested 4 times out of the car, only to have the same problem when installed in the car once again. What a puzzler.

[torqhead]

Watching the video I would suggest the ignition system (distributor/spark) be gone over with a fine tooth comb. Make sure it's got good power!

A couple of observations, first when you try to start it you get that "cough" or minor backfire after a bit through the carb, that's a sign of spark firing too soon or when an intake valve is still potentially open. I doubt it was a side effect of heat/pre-ignition since you just started the motor for the first time.

Also, if you watch the pattern of the motor misfiring after the belt squealing stops you can see it's a fairly regular "timed" shake to the motor. I've seen something similar when plug wires are out of order or a bad connection which could be causing the "knocking" you're hearing if the timing isn't right for a particular cylinder(s). Which is not good for the motor, so best to sort this out before continuing to run it.

Also, that bolt that's been screwed in the middle of the carburetor where there would normally be the air cleaner attached. As your last post indicated, that hole goes all the way through the carb. That could be a vacuum leak if that bolt isn't "sealed" in there somehow.

I don't know HWYSTR455 personally but he's had some pretty good advice on the forum here and hopefully can help you chase down the problem. I'm sure he'll check out ignition, vacuum leaks, etc. Hopefully he can help you find the cause!

[Va68goat]

mgarblik,

Man...we have checked for anything that could be causing that noise. We are still going to check some again BUT...how can anyone explain the damage to the distributor bushing, the damaged bearings and damaged piston rings, the block needing a light honing and the crank needing polishing? We've pulled the torque converter back at least 4 different occassions and that wasn't the problem. I was worried about the flex plate because thats the only thing that wasn't new. I bought a new one and sent it to Paul. He balanced it and once again...It wasn't the problem. I was told that it would be difficult to hear this noise from the booth of a dyno room. Thank you for the suggestions. We will recheck everything that could be vibrating, hitting..etc.

torqhead,
All of that makes sense to me but if this motor was just on a dyno a month ago, how could timing be in play? We didn't adjust the timing or the carb. We will definately get the right stud in the carb. Thanks for taking the time for the ideas..now that does actually help!

[TedRamAirII]

I said this before, and say it again. You need to get your hand on that engine, before its idling for 10 minutes and too hot. FEEL for the noise. I cant believe you have a guy right there with all this Pontiac Experience and has no clue on where this noise is coming from. Get a wooden stick and put it to your ear and start poking around. After 10 minutes, you should at least have a good idea where it originates from, and go from there. Even make a slow motion video, with a timing light on the balancer, and see if its every revolution, or every other. Then home in on exactly where it is in the rotation of the crank. That thing sure shudders, I know that's not right, that should be smooth. Hard to imagine it could run so good on a Dyno, then get installed and turns to crap. Its going to be so simple, and embarrassing when we all find out what it is. I cant blame you for patience wearing thin, I would certainly be tearing my hair out by now. Did you crank it up with all belts off? Harmonic Balancer torqued down? front pulley bolts all tight? Fuel pump quiet? Feel the dipstick, all good there? Dist cap? Get your hand on things and feel for the noise.

[promptcritical]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

Formulajones,

Again, you're a great friend to Paul and Jeff and I expect no less. I won't acknowledge your comments on this thread anymore because you're just a distraction and you're not contributing to solving the problem. You're not part of this equation so there is no use in you commenting. Me, Paul and Jeff are bummed about this and the last thing any of us need is someone that is trolling. Either help solve the problem or move on to another thread!

PS: When I mentioned having the heads inspected to Paul...Paul agreed and spoke to the shop!

What was wrong with the heads that were built?

[Va68goat]

TedRamAirII,

With Paul finding the bad distributor bushing after we located the witness marks are the oil pump shaft, we thought for sure that was the issue. This motor was on the dyno a month ago and it still has the same noise as before. We've done the wooden stick, long screwdriver and even a mechanics stethoscope. We thought we had a signature at the distributor. Nobody can understand why the motor is reported to have been running good on the dyno but yet bad in the car. We didn't touch the timing or adjust the carb prior the starting the car. Before I sent the motor back, we ran it without the belts..noise was still present. The balancer was torqued by Paul so I'm positive it's correct. We will check it but the noise has always remained the same. Pulley bolts were tight and we didnt get a signature from the fuel pump. We even ran the motor with the fuel from just the bowls and the knocking never left. We felt the dipstick and it was fine...no vibration or marks on the dipstick. As for the distributor...it was reported that the bushing went bad on the MSD ready to run distributor. I've done months of research to find another case of an MSD distributor bushing going bad and I couldn't find another complaint. Distributor cap was fine. Paul had it in his hands when he discoverd the bad bushing.

Is it even possible that the distributor was severely damaged when the motor blew up on the dyno because the pickup tube fell into the pan? What exactly happens? Is that a violent failure or does the motor just die a slow death?

[Va68goat]

promptcritical,

The heads checked out good. At that point, I was still communicating with Paul and asked him if it would be worth it to have the heads inspected and he agreed. Paul spoke with the guy from the machine shop and Paul explained where it needed to be. The guys gave the heads a clean bill of health and even commented on Pauls work once they understood from Paul what spring pressure needed to be.