[Sirrotica]

It can be behind the front bumper, trunk, or anywhere you have room. It can be mounted in any position so I think a unit 4 1/4" X 8" unit should be able to be mounted in an accessible place without too much trouble.

[Karck]

Theres alot of old Frantz filters in Ebay for 50$ i should propably get one!

[Sirrotica]

I've noticed the Sunday morning car shows on MAV TV are featuring some of their products from Frantz now.

Hot Shots Secret company bought Frantz in 2014 and have made some changes/improvements in the line. The price has also jumped up since the sale.

Link to the current owner of Frantz filters:
http://www.frantzfilters.com/?utm_so...ign=LSI_Brands

[gtofreek]

OK, now I have read this whole thread. Brad, you have made some very good points[yes, I believe in giving credit where credit is due, even though we don't normally get along]. I have not been familiar with by-pass systems before. The old 235 Chevy engines had a by-pass system on them, only without a full flow filter at all. Those oiling systems aren't that good though as the by-pass system just ties into the main oil gallery. Most of the oil still just goes into the bearings, so I don't see how much help that system is to those engines. I have one of these 235's at work right now, and the bearing journals are really scratched up from dirt. Really bad. But, who knows how that engine has been managed.

I think I am going to look into one of these systems for my engine when the time comes. Makes a lot of sense. You still have the main filter to catch the big stuff, and the by-pass to keep it all clean for a long time. Seems win, win to me.

So, how much do these systems run?

[Sirrotica]

Whether we see eye to eye on all things is irrelevant, this just makes sense to anyone that wants to extend their engine life as well as their oil life.

I have heard some wonderful things about the Frantz filters from people that have owned them, many wished they hadn't let theirs go when they traded in their cars. Some people had saved their filters and put them away on a shelf, and when they were reminded of the advantages of them dug them back out and re-installed them on what they were currently driving.

Pual, I know that you and I have differences in opinions on some things, but we both appreciate mechanical things and what it takes to keep them at their best. Best of all we both think the outdated Pontiac Stratostreak engine was a masterpiece of engineering compared to other engines designed around the same time. I think we both believe that it still has potential to run with most any 90 degree V8 current or from the past, that said, we do agree on that.

Anyway I never got up on the soapbox to try to make money, even though I am a dealer/or was a dealer for Frantz. The filter system is so much more advanced over a full flow system that more people should know there is a much better system out there than what the engineers came up with. The full flow system is marginal at cleaning the oil, but as most times in Detroit it was CHEAP to implement.

Just as some of the great ideas on the Pontiac engine that were good idea, but were done away with to save a few cents per unit. Gusher reverse flow cooling, steel timing gears, cheapening the castings on the 557 block (yeah is saved a few ounces, but at what cost) and the list goes on.

I know that looking at $250+ dollars seems expensive to switch oil filtering systems over just screwing on a new $5-$15 full flow filter, but as I have proven to myself the $250 expenditure pays for itself in less that 5 years in saving money on oil and filter changes. Every saving after that goes right in your pocket. When it comes time to get a new car you can remove the system and install it on your new car.

Now your saving money on oil and filter changes, but the thing people forget is your also lessening the wear on all the internal engine parts as a bonus. It doesn't show up in your wallet, but it's still there.

Suffice to say this is just a glimpse at a option to save anyone reading this money and internal engine wear. If it's not for you, just keep on doing what your doing, no need to try to run down the whole idea of by pass filtering because your not willing to try it.

Let me just say this, all the people I have talked with that have owned a Frantz system, and over the years it's in the hundreds, I have never had a former owner say it didn't do what it was claimed to. Most want to tell you their story and they have all been positive.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

It has a 1/8 inch restrictor that feeds off any oil pressure port. The oil feeds through slowly so it gets filtered completely and just returns to the sump. Cleaning oil to this standard can only be done slowly and since the by pass system has no bearing on oil pressure to internally oiled engine parts it has no by pass valve to open under extreme conditions as the compromised full flow system must have.

It is a closed system that takes a small portion from the oil system that would be by passed by the pump and does an excellent job filtering and returns it cleaned to the pan. It processes 4 quart in 5 minutes so in 6-7 minutes it will filter all the oil in the system once. Since the system uses oil that would normally be sent back to the pan by the oil pump by pass valve it has no effect on oil pressure. All oil systems have more than enough oil in reserve that bleeding of a minute amount for the by pass system has no ill effects.

Picture of by pass filter system:

Hello Brad,

I have seen bypass systems used in the past but have a question about your wording above:

"It is a closed system that takes a small portion from the oil system that would be by passed by the pump and does an excellent job filtering and returns it cleaned to the pan."

ALL of the oil in the oil system goes thru the oil pump or it remains in the oil pan.

If the oil is never pumped by the oil pump it cannot reach the factory oil filter or the "by-pass system" which you describe.

1) Even the oil that gets by-passed by the "pump by-pass" built into the pump goes thru the oil pump gears first.

So if you are taking "pump by-pass" oil and filtering that oil and returning that oil to the pan, it is not going to happen with a normal Pontiac oil pump with an internal oil pump by-pass circuit. Now if you changed the words to by-passing the primary oil filter and routing some oil thru a secondary oil filter before returning that oil to the oil pan, that would be correct.

2) If you take oil thru a .125" orifice and then attempt to feed it thru a long line to a conventional passenger car turbo, you have the potential to starve the OEM Turbo of needed oil volume at high Turbo RPM conditions.

You might get away with that deal with a ceramic "ball bearing" style turbo (like the race guys use) because the ball bearing stuff can use a bit less oil vs a journal bearing Turbo but Turbochargers are expensive.

So at work we use an Oberg style 28 micron screen filter (designed for cleaning fuel) before the Turbo and catch a very large amount of "Stuff" before it gets to the turbo in a engine that has accumulated 1600 Hours of dyno time. So the 28 micron filter seems to be a more than adequate size as we have never had a failure of the engine or Turbo from starvation due to oil flow or metal contamination and yet have run the exact same turbo parts on at least 3 engines (each that accumulated over 1600 hours in dyno time).

You might say we are By-pass Cleaning that oil thru a 28 micron by-pass system as the oil goes thru the turbo and immediately returns to the oil pan.

So now I guess we can argue about what Micron size "By-pass" makes you happy.

Tom V.

ps The nice thing about the Oberg stuff is that you can remove the screen, wash it, and install exactly the same screen back into the system and never replace any "by-pass" filter period. Lifetime deal.

[Sirrotica]

Hello Tom, I'm very famliar with the Oberg tattle tale filter system, good friend of mine ran one on his Gaerte engine in his late model dirt car. When he got the first engine from them he was told to check it after every night of racing. The residue found there would indicate the engines condition or if there was something going south it would be caught before it ended up in catastrophic engine failure.

He caught roller lifter shrapnel in it and headed off an expensive repair by monitoring it weekly within a year after he installed it. The point I made in one of my posts was that the top of the filter roll can be read the same as an Oberg filter can. Yes your going to have to replace the filter element, but anyone finding debris in any filter is going to have to replace or wash filters. At $3.25 cents per single element (less if you buy in quantity) I believe no one would be going broke replacing the media as opposed to washing a screen out.

The Oberg is a short term filter meant for dyno runs or competition engines, it has to be inspected routinely because it has a small capacity. Not practical for a street driven engine, IMO. An Oberg nor a full flow filter will also not absorb any condensation, with a TP system it can absorb up to 6 oz. of water, preventing any sulfur based contaminants from turning into acid further degrading the engine oil.

The filters I'm talking about is a long distance filter that will filter oil until you change the element, or if you neglect the media it will plug solid and defer the oil back to the full flow system. I've only seen one filter completely blocked. It's easily monitored by feeling the outside of the canister after the engine is warm. If the canister is cold the filter is totally blocked.

Tom, my wording may not be technically correct, however I believe anyone reading it got the meaning of what route the oil in the by pass system was taking. If not, they can just look at the diagram I posted for clarification. Sorry, I never claimed to be as well educated as you, just a 12th grade education, 2 years of Vo Tech, and 45 years in the school of hard knocks.

My reference to 1 micron was at 98% efficiency, I have no idea of an Obergs efficiency rating. It may be 28 microns at 50% or 75% efficiency. The long strands in virgin paper is ideal for filtering oil, I don't believe a screen will have the same efficiency rating as virgin paper fibers will.

Why in your post do you mention arguing? I have no need to argue about anything I have posted. I don't believe that any size particulate that is removed from motor oil be it 1 micron or 25 microns is all good. I know when I talk about filtering my motor oil that the less particulate it has in it the happier I am.

One of the combustion contaminants produced is carbon, and carbon is hell on anything metal that it rubs against. The less in the oil the better I like it.

[Steve C.]

Interesting...

Under the Magnuson-Moss Act, a vehicle manufacturer or dealer cannot discriminate against after-market filters that meet or exceed OEM standards. All System 1 filters exceed standards. Proper use of our filters will not void your warranty.

Here noted 30 micron, primarily recommended for 0- to 50-weight oil.

http://www.system1filters.com/oilfilters.htm

But then many often do not put too much faith in manufacturer specs.


.

[HWYSTR455]

I use AC Delco PF24 filters, got a deal on a case, think I paid like $2.35 ea, maybe less (it's been a while). I have 3 cars, all that use the same filter, so it makes sense. AC rates this filter at 25-30 micron filtration level, so it's very comparable to others.

I've seen a lot of folks run the SYSTEM1 filters, and they seem to never have had issues with them, so suspect they are a quality piece. They have to 30 & 45 micron units, and being serviceable, makes them a cost effective solution/option.

I contemplated the Professional Products unit for some time, especially when there were talks that the PF24 filter was getting difficult to find or rumored to be discontinued. There too I heard those using them have not had any issues with them. They are rated at 45 microns, and are $80, much less than others on the market, making it a cost effective solution/option.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pf...w/make/pontiac

Only issue I see with extended interval oil changes is contamination from 'liquid' contaminants, or the breakdown/effectiveness of additives in the oil. No filter regardless of how small a particle it traps is going to filter or correct those conditions. The oil can look perfectly 'clean', and still suffer from those conditions.

I'm on 5000 mile oil change intervals on all of my cars, unless there is some specific reason to change it. For example, a hung float. That would warrant an oil change. Common sense. Just like an overheating, dictates an oil change.

I'm never going back to a HFT cam either, so seriously considering synthetic-based oils. The additive packages in those tend to last longer, for one.

In a properly prepared engine, you can get 240+k miles out of it, with a top-end (valve job) rebuild at like 120k. I abuse my engines, and usually do a disassembly around 120k, inspect, and generally go a bore size up, just as a precautionary measure. I'm not really seeing any reason to reduce my oil change intervals to 1 or 2 in that amount of miles. Yeah, I understand the costs, but over the period of time I drive that engine, and how I drive, I'll keep to the intervals and standard filters I've familiar with. Call me stubborn.

.

[HWYSTR455]

"Some years ago, a study was done on oil filters that uncovered the Fram filter farce. They named AC Delco’s filter to be one of the better models. Later, AC Delco changed their design and went to a cheaper setup made by an offshore manufacturer. Even so, I definitely recommend this filter over the design of any Fram filter. In fact, I even recommend it over the low-end Wix and I (personally) prefer it over the Purolators.

The filter cartridge has a large outside diameter with deep pleats, which gives the filter element the maximum flow possible. At first glance, it appears to have little filter element media, but the surface area measure was suprising: 315 sqin. The unit had a solid top end cap because the bypass valve is at the bottom, which is a well-constructed spring-loaded steel with a nitrile seal design. The nitrile rubber diaphram-type anti-drainback valve doubles as the seal between the bypass valve and the cartridge. The only drawback to this design is that the bypass valve seats metal-to-metal against the backplate. This could allow oil from the clean side of the filter to seep back into the oil pan, but it won't allow the dirty oil in the filter to seep back. Oil that is in the main gallery usually leaks out through the main bearings anyway while the engine sits. This is a better alternative to the high-end Wix, which can allow oil to seep from the dirty side of the filter to the clean side. "

"...Here are the low-cost filters that I feel safe using, based on all this information (in alphabetical order): AC Delco, Purolator, and Wix...."

http://www.austincc.edu/wkibbe/oilfilterstudy.htm


.

[flyingn]

That was many years ago (13 years ago)and the new Frams are much better. I still would trust the orange can Frams but the Fram Ultras are the very best filters you can buy.

http://ca.fram.framautogroup.com/sit...ltra_alpha.png

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

"Some years ago, a study was done on oil filters that uncovered the Fram filter farce. They named AC Delco’s filter to be one of the better models. Later, AC Delco changed their design and went to a cheaper setup made by an offshore manufacturer. Even so, I definitely recommend this filter over the design of any Fram filter. In fact, I even recommend it over the low-end Wix and I (personally) prefer it over the Purolators.

The filter cartridge has a large outside diameter with deep pleats, which gives the filter element the maximum flow possible. At first glance, it appears to have little filter element media, but the surface area measure was suprising: 315 sqin. The unit had a solid top end cap because the bypass valve is at the bottom, which is a well-constructed spring-loaded steel with a nitrile seal design. The nitrile rubber diaphram-type anti-drainback valve doubles as the seal between the bypass valve and the cartridge. The only drawback to this design is that the bypass valve seats metal-to-metal against the backplate. This could allow oil from the clean side of the filter to seep back into the oil pan, but it won't allow the dirty oil in the filter to seep back. Oil that is in the main gallery usually leaks out through the main bearings anyway while the engine sits. This is a better alternative to the high-end Wix, which can allow oil to seep from the dirty side of the filter to the clean side. "

"...Here are the low-cost filters that I feel safe using, based on all this information (in alphabetical order): AC Delco, Purolator, and Wix...."

http://www.austincc.edu/wkibbe/oilfilterstudy.htm


.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Only issue I see with extended interval oil changes is contamination from 'liquid' contaminants, or the breakdown/effectiveness of additives in the oil. No filter regardless of how small a particle it traps is going to filter or correct those conditions. The oil can look perfectly 'clean', and still suffer from those conditions. .

From Blackstone labs about the much better efficiency of by pass filtering over full flow inline filtering. Also addressing the topic of extended oil changes and peoples phobia about not getting "bad" oil out of their engines. Bad oil is dirty oil that regular oil filters cannot keep clean because of their design, it is still plenty capable of lubricating, but the contaminants that are left in it are also causing wear on critical surfaces in the engine as they re-circulate:

We receive many oil samples from clients who don't understand what is required to run unusually long oil use intervals in their engines. The accumulation of wear metals, blow-by materials, and oil oxidation products in their oils is alarming. It has been our experience that one cannot simply add oil of a particular brand or base stock and expect it will be useful for an extended period of time, lubricating, cleaning, and cooling as required. Oil that becomes contaminated needs to be changed promptly. In our opinion, there are no magic oils or additives.

There are, however, auxiliary systems you can add to your engine's lubricating system that will keep the oil clean enough to use over an extended period of time. By-pass filtration units are the most common system used for this purpose.
In-line oil filtration, which comes installed on your engine from the factory, filters oil entering the engine down to roughly 30-40 microns (millionths of a meter). This is about as finely as in-line filtration can filter, because when the oil is cold or the filter is partially plugged, a finer filter would cause too great a pressure drop, forcing open the filter by-pass valve and allowing unfiltered oil to circulate through the engine.

By-pass filtration works differently. When this type of auxiliary system is installed, some of the sump oil by-passes the in-line filter system, passing continually though a by-pass filter and then returning to the oil sump. Using this method, sump oil is constantly being cleaned any time the engine is running, and it can be filtered down to a very fine size. All you have to do to maintain the system is occasionally change the by-pass filter.

Not only do the by-pass filtration units cleanse the sump oil of blow-by and oxidation products, they also reduce wear metals and silicon accumulations, both of which are abrasive. Oil does not wear out. Its usefulness is limited by contamination. By-pass filtration removes most of the contaminants.

How long can an oil fill be run using by-pass filtration? We've heard claims of large (Class 8) diesels going 1,000,000 miles on the same fill of oil with no harm done to the engines. We have analyzed oils which have been in service 240,000 miles and found nothing unusual in the analysis, other than higher than average iron and lead (from steel parts and bearings), and these wear accumulations were not intolerably high.

After having run many tens of thousands of diesel engine oil samples, it is our opinion that a by-pass oil filtration system is one of the most important factors in extending oil drains. If you are interested in extended oil drains, we suggest you investigate adding this type of system to your engine.

One other thing that hasn't been addressed much is the total efficiency of a filter. It may filter to 40 microns but if it's 90% efficient 10% of the particulate is still getting through. Ideally filters in the 98-99% efficiency area are about the best out there.

As suggested by the article by Blackstone, if your only using a full flow filter your throwing your oil away very prematurely simply because of the design of the inline filter limitations it cannot keep it clean.

My own test with my 6.5 TD of 25,000 miles with regular Shell 15W-40 Rotella and 4 + years on the oil has proven to me that it does not just appear clean, it actually is clean, and able to safely carry out all the duties fresh oil is capable of.

What all comes down to, is no matter whose name is on the side of a full flow can, the design is very inefficient. There is no magic can filter that is anywhere near as efficient at keeping oil clean solely because of the design limitations. Filtering oil down to even 20 microns (Very unusual in a full flow filter) is still leaving a bunch of damaging/wear causing particulate re-circulating through your engine. As has been cited the 5-10 micron contaminants cause the majority of wear. No can filter even addresses those. The industry says at 5-6,000 miles, or sooner under extreme conditions, you need to throw the contaminated oil away because the small abrasive bits are getting more dense because the can filter has no way of removing them. The more concentrated they become the more they are wearing engine parts.

Now if you have a by pass filtration system from day one they are getting removed from your oil. Not recirculating and causing wear, not depleting oil additives, they are not building up because they are getting filtered out on the first pass through the by pass filter. It's black and white, apples to oranges, there is no comparison to a compromised design full flow filter and a dedicated 100% by pass filter. From the get go, they are different animals, one is a compromised design that must under all circumstances must keep oil at the internally lubed parts, while the other is a dedicated design that has only one duty. It has to clean the oil 100% to a very high standard slowly (compared to a full flow design) and return it to the sump. No condition that it must meet to keep lube to the internal parts no matter if it's clean or bypassed totally by the filter, no bypass valve.

[Sirrotica]

Another thing is if you think your oil filter bypass valve only opens occasionally. It opens more than you think it does, each time sending unfiltered oil to the wear surfaces, most times is when it really should be sending filtered oil to the wear surfaces.

When the oil is cold and the fuel air mixture is enriched. Rowing it through the gears at higher than usual RPMs, racing. All these conditions are elevating blow by particulate to the crankcase. An article from BITOG about filter bypass valves and when they open.

The Bypass Valve

Under ideal conditions, the bypass valve will never open. When it opens, the oil by passes the filter and goes on through to the motor, obviously unfiltered. It is a safety valve. However, in real operation, it opens often.

One example is when you start the motor when cold. The oil is thick and does not pass easily through the filtration medium, thus building up to a high pressure drop. So, the bypass valve opens to prevent oil-starvation of the motor. How long it stays open is dependent on how cold the oil is and how long it takes to get near operating temperature. When the pressure drop across the filtration medium drops below the bypass valve setting.

Another example can occur when the motor is fully warmed. At idle, the oil pressure is about 15 to 20 psi, and the pressure drop across the filter is about 1 or 2 psi. You take off towards the redline, and quickly build oil pressure. During that full-throttle acceleration the pressure drop across the filter will exceed the bypass setting, and send unfiltered oil to the motor, until the pressure across the filter has time to equalize. During a drag race, shifting through the gears, the bypass will open several times.

A third example, which you should never experience with frequent oil and filter changes, is when a filter becomes clogged. A spin-on filter can commonly hold 10 to 20 grams of trash before it becomes fully clogged. The bypass valve opening is the only way to keep the motor from becoming oil-starved if the filter becomes clogged.

According to Purolator, the Honda OEM filter bypass setting is 12 to 14 psi. WIX (NAPA Gold) builds their oil filters with a bypass setting of 8 to 11 psi, while AC Delco builds theirs to a setting of 11 to 17 psi. How much do these differences matter? I don't think anyone knows, even the engineers, and each has its own set of advantages and disadvantages.

If you do lots of racing, you're probably better off with a higher bypass setting.
If you do lots of *cold* starting, especially in the winter, or seldom change your filter, I think you're better off with a lower bypass setting. However, with few exceptions, bypass pressures for spin-on filters run in the 8 to 17 psi range, and any of them should work acceptably.

One other addition, the finest lapping compound is 10-20 microns, I don't want any abrasives/contaminants that large in my oil.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

From Blackstone labs about the much better efficiency of by pass filtering over full flow inline filtering. Also addressing the topic of extended oil changes and peoples phobia about not getting "bad" oil out of their engines. Bad oil is dirty oil that regular oil filters cannot keep clean because of their design, it is still plenty capable of lubricating, but the contaminants that are left in it are also causing wear on critical surfaces in the engine as they re-circulate:

I'm not talking about hard particles, in size, or amount, that I understand, I'm talking about raw gas, maybe antifreeze when a head gasket goes, fluid contaminants, that are not heavy particles. You can have 20 filters in a row and it won't separate that from the 'good' oil, even if all the heavy particles are removed. You can get raw fuel contaminates from just ring blow by too.

All that 'fluff' that came from Blackstone is just that, fluff, because they avoided talking about fluid contaminants. If you look at the wording, it's intentional.

"We have analyzed oils which have been in service 240,000 miles and found nothing unusual in the analysis, other than higher than average iron and lead (from steel parts and bearings), and these wear accumulations were not intolerably high."

Iron and lead? Why isn't that filtered out? And what exactly is 'intolerably high' ?

Anyway, I'm not arguing the fact that more filtration is good, and I'm sure it has an impact on how long oil can be used. All I'm saying is that there is contaminates that can't be filtered out by a filter, because the contaminate is a fluid. That would require some type of separation type system.

.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Another thing is if you think your oil filter bypass valve only opens occasionally. It opens more than you think it does, each time sending unfiltered oil to the wear surfaces, most times is when it really should be sending filtered oil to the wear surfaces.

When the oil is cold and the fuel air mixture is enriched. Rowing it through the gears at higher than usual RPMs, racing. All these conditions are elevating blow by particulate to the crankcase. An article from BITOG about filter bypass valves and when they open.

This too can be argued. How long does it take for the capacity of oil in the pan to circulate? Couple mins? If that. So you idle for say 3-5 min, on a warmed up engine, and all the oil has passed through the filter, right? Under no load? Then you make a blast/pass. How much contaminates are going to be produced in that time? It's not going to be saturated, right? So the next few mins of normal driving, all the oil passes through the filter. So it gets filtered. It's not like the oil is in bypass 80% of the time.

Which brings up another point, how long does it take for the entire contents to pass through the bypass oil filtration system? Probably what, 3, 4, maybe 5 times as long as the primary filtration system?

Let's touch on Blackstone Labs. Who do they get their' funding from? Have you ever seen the movie 'Thank you for Smoking'?

Again, I'm not arguing the fact that there are benefits from running a bypass filtration system, I'm just questioning some areas that are not 'clear' to me, these are probably common consumer-type concerns/questions.

.

[TedRamAirII]

[QUOTE=HWYSTR455;5500814]This too can be argued. How long does it take for the capacity of oil in the pan to circulate?

I would say most oil pumps can do 8-12 GPM @2500 rpm so.....30 seconds?

Couple mins? If that. So you idle for say 3-5 min, on a warmed up engine, and all the oil has passed through the filter, right? Under no load? Then you make a blast/pass. How much contaminates are going to be produced in that time? It's not going to be saturated, right? So the next few mins of normal driving, all the oil passes through the filter. So it gets filtered. It's not like the oil is in bypass 80% of the time.

I think unless the filter is new and clean, it would be interesting how much it actually does bypass. Bypassing the pressure relief on the pump a lot when cold, and then the oil bypassing the filter when the filter cant keep up with the flow. Cold or high pressure, its not being filtered.

Which brings up another point, how long does it take for the entire contents to pass through the bypass oil filtration system? Probably what, 3, 4, maybe 5 times as long as the primary filtration system?

Maybe 5 times longer, yes, but the oil is cleaner than it will ever be. Clean oil picks up contaminates and delivers them to the full flow filter which takes out "boulders" then the By Pass filter , takes out the "sand"

Let's touch on Blackstone Labs. Who do they get their' funding from? Have you ever seen the movie 'Thank you for Smoking'?

They have nothing to gain by "lying". If you dont like what they tell you, ignore them, they dont care. Just my Opinion. ; )

Again, I'm not arguing the fact that there are benefits from running a bypass filtration system, I'm just questioning some areas that are not 'clear' to me, these are probably common consumer-type concerns/questions.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

This too can be argued. How long does it take for the capacity of oil in the pan to circulate? Couple mins? If that. So you idle for say 3-5 min, on a warmed up engine, and all the oil has passed through the filter, right? Under no load? Then you make a blast/pass. How much contaminates are going to be produced in that time? It's not going to be saturated, right? So the next few mins of normal driving, all the oil passes through the filter. So it gets filtered. It's not like the oil is in bypass 80% of the time.

Which brings up another point, how long does it take for the entire contents to pass through the bypass oil filtration system? Probably what, 3, 4, maybe 5 times as long as the primary filtration system?

Let's touch on Blackstone Labs. Who do they get their' funding from? Have you ever seen the movie 'Thank you for Smoking'?

Again, I'm not arguing the fact that there are benefits from running a bypass filtration system, I'm just questioning some areas that are not 'clear' to me, these are probably common consumer-type concerns/questions.

.

Blackstone labs is one of the most respected oil analysis labs in the US, headquartered in Fort Wayne IN. They have no dog in this fight so they have no reason to slant anything.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

They only do oil analysis as a third party, they have no interest in oil, filters, or additives. I believe they are as neutral as they could be as they have seen and recommended by their analysis when oil is safe to run further to fleet operator and industrial clients.

I assumed most people here knew who they, Blackstone was, so I was wrong in that assumption, and I've now clarified that.

In case anyone missed it the contaminants of the micron size under 30-40 has been dismissed as inconsequential. Posted above is the size of fine lapping compound (Abrasive paste used to burnish/polish small inconsistencies between a valve and a seat so they're matched). Fine lapping compound is in the 10-20 micron size. I would say that that size abrasive/contaminant is not benign as some would like to believe.

HWYSTR, You said you might be stubborn, I tend to believe stubborn as well as very wary of anything that is a change from your normal MO. Not sure how you got convinced that a 4L80E, fuel injection and roller cams are better than a carb, or a T400 with 3.08 gears or a RA IV cam with Rhodes lifters.........................

If you want to continue using a can filter that's fine, but please don't try to cast doubt on the information I've posted. To the best of my knowledge it's as factual as humanly possible. I did a lot of research before I spent $2500 to become a Frantz franchised dealer, as well as my own testing, on my dime on my own vehicles, is where I'm getting information from. And no I could care less if anyone buys a filter from me, the discussion is about advantages of by pass filtration over the full flow inline can filter and how limiting the design is in reference to efficiency.

To answer a few of your references even though some of them were already discussed in earlier posts

. A Frantz filter will absorb up to 6 ounces of any non petroleum soluble liquid. Be it antifreeze, water. It will not remove gasoline/diesel fuel and there is no technology that will remove that from oil. However the operating temp of oil most of the light hydrocarbons will evaporate from the oil and as you said, common sense dictates if your float stuck your not going to wait for the gas to evaporate.

Four quarts of oil will pass through the by pass filter in 5 minutes at idle. Since there is a 1/8 inch restrictor, oil pressure has little effect on capacity. Even a deep pan with extra capacity will filter the entire amount in under 10 minutes. One other thing is the Frantz by pass filter adds 1 quart to the oil system, it also has value of some cooling of the oil as it moves through the canister.

Any particulate that ends up in the pan is indeed going to be filtered as long as its' less than say 30-40 microns by the inline filter. Anything smaller is destined to keep circulating until the oil is changed, your choice there. I feel even though you want keep trying to shoot holes in my posts, you would agree that it will be finer rather than coarser material sailing past the rings in your example. Finer being destined to keep recirculating because the filtration system cannot remove it from the oil no matter how many times it circulates through the full flow filter it will remain in the oil until the oil is changed.

[HWYSTR455]

Why are you taking this personally? I'm not attacking you, or the bypass setups you praise, and I actually agree with your statements. And sure, I'm casting doubt, because like many others, my maintenance works for the life of my engines.

Why would you bring up off-topic stuff? Other than to throw stones? Are you telling me and others you think roller cams, OD transmissions, and fuel injection is inferior to carbs, Th400s, and HFT cams? That's not helping your case.

I just threw out questions others may have as well, and not want to cross some PC line and ask. I must have made some good points, or you wouldn't have been so offended and avoided answering the questions.

I'm an engineer-type personality, I didn't want to offend anyone here, I have questions, I ask them, that's how my brain works. Prove me wrong, I would be happy to admit, and happy I learned something that would benefit me. (and others for that matter)

On the other hand, throw some more stones and I will unsubscribe from this thread, and not clutter it with any more of my thoughts or questions. Others that don't get legitimate answers will just ignore the thread.

.

[Sirrotica]

No stones thrown here, It's not personal on my end and I'm not the least bit offended.
Let me lay this out for you.

I know you like fuel injection, 4L80E trannys, and roller cams. If your so stubborn,(your words not mine) I wonder how it is that you moved on to those things (I'm also a proponent of FI, 4L80E transmissions, and roller cams) over the outmoded carburetors, T400s with 3.08 gears (the low buck alternative that always comes up when a 4L80E swap is mentioned on PY) and RA IV cams with Rhodes lifters (the old go to about 15 years ago)

So now that I've explained my post, and there is nothing personal, there are no hard feeling on my end, I think that we're on the same team except on the better oil filtration is beneficial to any engine, however it seems you aren't convinced that it would benefit you.

[Tom Vaught]

Brad, not wanting this to get out of context here, I see nothing wrong with the Bypass Filter philosophy, in general. We had to balance oil flow to a turbo that was run at max engine rpm +10% for several hours at a time. That portion of the testing was not done once but many times over a 300 hour dynometer test. Several hours of rpm at max torque rpm, several hours at max torque rpm = 10%, several hours at high load low rpm, you get the idea.

Also the manufactures typically specify hydrodynamic bearings for lots of applications. Hydrodynamic bearings pass through boundary and mixed-film modes during start-up, and shut down, or when faced with transient upset conditions. This means that material selection is an important design consideration for all sleeve bearings, no matter what their operating mode. The general attributes of a good bearing material are:

A low coefficient of friction versus hard shaft materials,
Good wear behavior against steel journals (scoring resistance),
The ability to absorb and discard small contaminant particles (embedibility),
The ability to adapt and adjust to the shaft roughness and misalignment (conformability),
High compressive strength,
High fatigue strength,
Corrosion resistance,
Low shear strength (at the bearing-to shaft interface),
Structural uniformity, and
Reasonable cost and ready availability.

So the very small micron particles you are referencing (being removed by the by-pass filter) are somewhat incorporated into the bearing design. The "embedibility" feature.
The bearing material basically absorbs the very small particles.

If you run a hard race bearing (on the street) then maybe the by-pass filter might help the bearing life. Most race engines get inspected much more often (as you know) vs accumulating 250,000 miles before a rebuild. Hobby cars might see 3K miles or less in a year.

Tom V.