[70FormulaRAIII]

I'll look into that tomorrow. It all depends on the seller at this point. He can make this easy and refund the cost of a YZ block and PQ trans or buy his car back and find another sucker on ebay

[fiedlerh]

The font for the number 4 looks unusual. Note that it is curved and is open on top. My 74 block has a closed 4 made of straight lines. Does anyone have a pic of a '70 block with the number 4 in it?

[The Boss]

I think it has been clearly shown these are not the block or transmission the car left the factory with. Don't get tied up in an argument over semantics, numbers matching carries with it an implication and expectation the parts are original.

[johnta1]

What Boss said.

[Held for Ransom]

Originally Posted by 70FormulaRAIII

Yep, rear, outer portion on the driver side. Looks like the trans and engine block are the extent of my damages.

I don't know about that. Your build date is 04B, the subframe date should be closer to it. Checking for the hidden partial VIN stamp might not be a bad idea.

[70FormulaRAIII]

I speak with the lawyer again tomorrow. I forgot to ask if I should start taking it apart and checking for that stuff. It's already a breach of contract and the seller will have to buy ther car back if he wants to go to trial.

BUT, say it is a rebody and the VIN on the firewall is different. Then what? I'm sure the seller will go to jail and I'll be awarded damages and my money back, but what about the car? Does it go to the crusher?

[70Steve]

Originally Posted by fiedlerh

The font for the number 4 looks unusual. Note that it is curved and is open on top. My 74 block has a closed 4 made of straight lines. Does anyone have a pic of a '70 block with the number 4 in it?

A C200 70 block with some 4's.

I must remember to get the PHS for this engine one day.

[76LQ9TA]

http://stlouis.craigslist.org/pts/1598631147.html

I ran across this ad today and thought of this thread.

[steve v]

Originally Posted by 76LQ9TA

http://stlouis.craigslist.org/pts/1598631147.html

I ran across this ad today and thought of this thread.

I'm not sure what is funnier....the spray paint of cast iron paint next to the freshly painted block or the lifters still stuck in the block w/the cam gone.

Here's the ad: 1970 Pontiac GTO Engine Trans Am Ram Air III IV Block (Saint Louis)
Date: 2010-02-12, 9:15PM CST
Reply to: [email protected] [Errors when replying to ads?]

A 1970 9799914 Pontiac block. The face is factory correct and clean! Meaning has not been stamped! You can stamp it correct for your Muscle Car! any code, can be stamped like WD, WE, WS, WS, WT, WT, WX, XH, XV, XX, XX, XY, XZ, YB, YB, YE, YS, YS, YZ, YZ, WH, WW, WW, XN, XP.

This block can easily be made into a Ram Air IV or III, just machine the 4 into 9799915. This block is correct and OEM block used for Ram Air IV and III 1970 GTO, Firebird, Trans Am, TA’s, Formula.

Engine block has never been bored (stock), however cylinder walls will need cleaned up to .030 should clean it up. Has been magnafluxed for cracks and passed. I have a set of stamps and can stamp for you at no charge. However payment must clear first. * This block is drilled for 4 bolt mains but has 2 bolt main caps currently and is already bore lined. Face is perfect, and straight.

Shipping: It is up to you the purchaser to pay for and arrange the shipping. The easiest way for you to do this is contact freightquote.com (1-800-323-5441), they will walk you through the entire process and find you the lowest rate. There are a number of freight companies in nearby Saint Louis zip code 63123. I can bolt the engine to a pallet and deliver it to the freight terminal of your choice in Saint Louis, this service is free. Of course presale inspections and local pickup are certainly welcomed.


* Location: Saint Louis
* it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests


PostingID: 1598631147

[Guilty]

Chris,
Call me when you get a chance. I have some interesting info for you on your car.
Brian.

[70FormulaRAIII]

Originally Posted by Guilty

Chris,
Call me when you get a chance. I have some interesting info for you on your car.
Brian.

We need to talk again tomorrow. Need some help from your friends there.

[johnta1]

That block on craigslist, definately looks like it was ground on.

Also, no 4 bolt caps to be a RA III or IV. (not even sure it's drlilled/threaded?)

[70FormulaRAIII]

Hard Evidence:
1) Ebay listing which clearly describes a very stock, very original car with 9K miles on it’s #’s matching, rebuilt engine and transmission
2) Emails from Jack Nichols which go into more detail concerning the cars restoration and it’s originality
3) All of the scoring cards from the various car shows that are mentioned in the ebay listing. I don’t know if points are deducted for having the wrong parts, but the car scored very well. No points were deducted for the wrong engine, carb, distributor, missing 3 front carpet clips, missing Formula wheel, wrong spare tire, spare tire holder, wing nut and missing washer etc etc etc.
4) The man who sold the car to Jack Nichols states that it had the original engine, carb etc. when he sold it to jack. He also admits to painting the car dark gold.
5) It is also well documented that the car had retained it’s original, or at least date correct, JW code wheels
6) Jack Nichols currently owns both a 1970 T/A and a 1970 Formula that he has been restoring.
7) The trans is a PW code TH 400 from a 1970 Grand Prix. The engine block is a restamp
8) Jack Nichols has not returned any of my phone calls. He did send an email a few days ago maintaining that the car is as exactly as he described it and that we have nothing to discuss.

Painting the Picture:

Jack Nichols acquired and restored a very original and highly optioned 1970 RAIII Formula back in 2000. It is reasonable to assume that he later acquired a 1970 T/A of similar date code that was missing all of those expensive and hard to find parts that he already had in the Formula. I think it’s also reasonable to assume that his other Formula is just a donor car for the T/A and maybe even for the one I just bought. We all know that a complete and original T/A is worth way more than a similarly equipped Formula. Heck, he could even restamp a block and still make good money on the Formula given its history of appearing in a magazine, a book and placing highly in several big car shows. Besides, most people would never know the difference. It is very likely that my engine and trans is in that T/A right now, albeit with the VIN ground off

Justice Prevails Right?

I called the Apopka PD, told them the story and asked if they could send a unit out to Jack’s house to search for my property. They said first I needed to have the El Paso PD come out and substantiate my claims, which they did. Turns out the officer who took the call had the exact same thing happen to him. He bought a 69 Mustang GT Fastback via ebay from a guy in Wyoming. The original #’s matching engine turned out to be a crate motor! The officer called the Apopka PD to ask them what they needed exactly as this case was very near and dear to his heart. To my dismay, the supervisor that handles auto theft in Apopka determined that no crime had been committed and this was a civil matter. In Florida, VIN tampering is a 3rd degree felony punishable by a $5K fine and up to 5 years in prison. This includes altering the VIN on a vehicle’s parts either directly, indirectly or having knowledge that it was altered. However, the car is no longer in Florida it’s in Texas. Even if my original engine and trans with corresponding VIN are in his garage the Apopka PD said it isn’t theft because I never had them in my possession. It is merely a contractual dispute and thus, a civil matter. I can file the civil dispute in the El Paso courts and, if he fails to appear, a warrant will be issued for his arrest. That is just another dead end, however, because Texas will not extradite.

The attorney I consulted was willing to take my money but informed me, out of pity perhaps, that at $200 per hour, his fees could easily surpass what I paid for the car. It just would not be in my best interest to pursue this. He is a car guy and stated this car could easily bring $18K at auction. I trust his advice, but this isn’t really about what I have lost monetarily. If that were truly my concern, I would not have advertised to the Pontiac world via this forum the issues with my car. This is about a man that butchered a very rare and original piece of American automotive history then sold it as such to one of our nations wounded warriors. This is about bringing justice to that coward and forcing him to stand before his accuser……..sorry, I was typing out loud….back to the topic now.

I filed a complaint through ebay. The El Paso police officer said that he did the same thing, and although it was well beyond their 45 day policy, they froze his account and banned him from the site. I didn’t even take possession of this vehicle until beyond the 45 day mark. It took weeks for the VA to process the payment and several more for it to be delivered.

Moral of the Story:

If you buy a car on ebay, make darn sure you tear it apart and check everything well before 45 days have elapsed. Having someone else do it isn’t good enough. What do you think is likely going to happen between the time your Pontiac expert leaves and the vehicle being loaded onto the transport carrier?

If at all possible, buy from within your home state. Once you cross state lines, things become more complicated and the likelihood of the legal system offering you any protection is greatly reduced.

If they ebay listing isn’t excruciatingly long and detailed, move on and go to the next. The shorter the seller’s description, the less he can be held liable for. Sellers that disclose every little imperfection on the car with numerous photos of the bad as well as the good are trying to do the right thing. A crook won’t show you photos of every scratch and dent because he thinks it will cost him some money on the sale. I’m not saying this is black and white; just something to consider. At any rate, get all of your questions answered in an email. The written word from the sellers personal email account is something you can keep forever. What comes out of his mouth is worthless by the time he takes his next breath.

I have a cousin that bought a car from his friend. He was familiar with the car. They live in the same town, and he still got ripped off. I’m not going to bad mouth ebay. They are amazingly successful with the honor code system. I wish all businesses were required to post their feedback score right above the door for your consider before you ever step foot into the place.

[70FormulaRAIII]

And one more thing: The case is closed!

I forgive Jack for what he did and how he has decided to handle it. If the Lord can forgive me for all the things I have done, how could I possibly not do the same? I won't hold a grudge and I don't want revenge. Remember, there are always two sides to the story. He has not posted here to defend himself.

I am the proud new owner of this car and I intend to restore it to better than original condition.

[70RAlll]

Originally Posted by 70FormulaRAIII

Hard Evidence:
1) Ebay listing which clearly describes a very stock, very original car with 9K miles on it’s #’s matching, rebuilt engine and transmission
2) Emails from Jack Nichols which go into more detail concerning the cars restoration and it’s originality
3) All of the scoring cards from the various car shows that are mentioned in the ebay listing. I don’t know if points are deducted for having the wrong parts, but the car scored very well. No points were deducted for the wrong engine, carb, distributor, missing 3 front carpet clips, missing Formula wheel, wrong spare tire, spare tire holder, wing nut and missing washer etc etc etc.
4) The man who sold the car to Jack Nichols states that it had the original engine, carb etc. when he sold it to jack. He also admits to painting the car dark gold.
5) It is also well documented that the car had retained it’s original, or at least date correct, JW code wheels
6) Jack Nichols currently owns both a 1970 T/A and a 1970 Formula that he has been restoring.
7) The trans is a PW code TH 400 from a 1970 Grand Prix. The engine block is a restamp
8) Jack Nichols has not returned any of my phone calls. He did send an email a few days ago maintaining that the car is as exactly as he described it and that we have nothing to discuss.

Painting the Picture:

Jack Nichols acquired and restored a very original and highly optioned 1970 RAIII Formula back in 2000. It is reasonable to assume that he later acquired a 1970 T/A of similar date code that was missing all of those expensive and hard to find parts that he already had in the Formula. I think it’s also reasonable to assume that his other Formula is just a donor car for the T/A and maybe even for the one I just bought. We all know that a complete and original T/A is worth way more than a similarly equipped Formula. Heck, he could even restamp a block and still make good money on the Formula given its history of appearing in a magazine, a book and placing highly in several big car shows. Besides, most people would never know the difference. It is very likely that my engine and trans is in that T/A right now, albeit with the VIN ground off

Justice Prevails Right?

I called the Apopka PD, told them the story and asked if they could send a unit out to Jack’s house to search for my property. They said first I needed to have the El Paso PD come out and substantiate my claims, which they did. Turns out the officer who took the call had the exact same thing happen to him. He bought a 69 Mustang GT Fastback via ebay from a guy in Wyoming. The original #’s matching engine turned out to be a crate motor! The officer called the Apopka PD to ask them what they needed exactly as this case was very near and dear to his heart. To my dismay, the supervisor that handles auto theft in Apopka determined that no crime had been committed and this was a civil matter. In Florida, VIN tampering is a 3rd degree felony punishable by a $5K fine and up to 5 years in prison. This includes altering the VIN on a vehicle’s parts either directly, indirectly or having knowledge that it was altered. However, the car is no longer in Florida it’s in Texas. Even if my original engine and trans with corresponding VIN are in his garage the Apopka PD said it isn’t theft because I never had them in my possession. It is merely a contractual dispute and thus, a civil matter. I can file the civil dispute in the El Paso courts and, if he fails to appear, a warrant will be issued for his arrest. That is just another dead end, however, because Texas will not extradite.

The attorney I consulted was willing to take my money but informed me, out of pity perhaps, that at $200 per hour, his fees could easily surpass what I paid for the car. It just would not be in my best interest to pursue this. He is a car guy and stated this car could easily bring $18K at auction. I trust his advice, but this isn’t really about what I have lost monetarily. If that were truly my concern, I would not have advertised to the Pontiac world via this forum the issues with my car. This is about a man that butchered a very rare and original piece of American automotive history then sold it as such to one of our nations wounded warriors. This is about bringing justice to that coward and forcing him to stand before his accuser……..sorry, I was typing out loud….back to the topic now.

I filed a complaint through ebay. The El Paso police officer said that he did the same thing, and although it was well beyond their 45 day policy, they froze his account and banned him from the site. I didn’t even take possession of this vehicle until beyond the 45 day mark. It took weeks for the VA to process the payment and several more for it to be delivered.

Moral of the Story:

If you buy a car on ebay, make darn sure you tear it apart and check everything well before 45 days have elapsed. Having someone else do it isn’t good enough. What do you think is likely going to happen between the time your Pontiac expert leaves and the vehicle being loaded onto the transport carrier?

If at all possible, buy from within your home state. Once you cross state lines, things become more complicated and the likelihood of the legal system offering you any protection is greatly reduced.

If they ebay listing isn’t excruciatingly long and detailed, move on and go to the next. The shorter the seller’s description, the less he can be held liable for. Sellers that disclose every little imperfection on the car with numerous photos of the bad as well as the good are trying to do the right thing. A crook won’t show you photos of every scratch and dent because he thinks it will cost him some money on the sale. I’m not saying this is black and white; just something to consider. At any rate, get all of your questions answered in an email. The written word from the sellers personal email account is something you can keep forever. What comes out of his mouth is worthless by the time he takes his next breath.

I have a cousin that bought a car from his friend. He was familiar with the car. They live in the same town, and he still got ripped off. I’m not going to bad mouth ebay. They are amazingly successful with the honor code system. I wish all businesses were required to post their feedback score right above the door for your consider before you ever step foot into the place.

Chris-

Why don't you file a civil complaint in Florida?? Which is where the crime took place?? I am sure you can get an attorney to file a simple civil complaint for a $1000 or so. Heck... There has to be a couple of Pontiac Clubs in Floridia. Tell them about this and I bet you will find a member of one of the Pontiac Clubs of Florida who is an attorney and will do this pro bono. I would not stop now. Heck... odds are this guy sold a TA to someone with a restamped block in it and your PQ tranny in it. That guy needs to be tracked down also. Can you give us his Ebay screename, I would like to see if we can research where he sold the TA.. Do not give up.. I know, from the sound of your recent post, that you sound defeated. You are a longw ay from that point.. I know there has to be Fla. Chapters of various Pontiac Clubs.. Without a doubt one will have an attorney who will help you out.. Lets all who are on PY help Chris out.. I know we have some guys here from Florida.. Chime in on the names and contact numbers of local POCA Chapters etc...

[70FormulaRAIII]

Here are the other #'s I found on the block. Just curious if anyone can make sense of it.

The partial VIN that was mostly removed appears to be: 70?110101
The EUN is only 5 digits rather than 7: 10355
And it's located away from where the VIN would normally be, however it looks more consistant with a factory stamping.

[70FormulaRAIII]

A good frame of reference pic

[The Boss]

Opinion:

The block has been decked and without the factory style broach marks. The numbers you are calling the EUN look like a stamp set a machine shop would use to mark a customer's parts. The vin is not in the factory position, is not complete and has the wrong font style on several of the characters. The block code is the wrong size, is very poorly done and is wrong as well.

Don't give up Chris, you got screwed and deserve better. Take 70RAIII's advice an go after him.

Has he responded to you at all?

[70FormulaRAIII]

I gave up trying to contact him. he is too much of a sissy to speak with me on the phone. I feel kinda lucky that I got an email returned, but I'm sure it was his wife that wrote it for him.

You and Bill are right. I should should keep fighting, but I'm outta gas brother. I've been at war with the Army healthcare system and Army Medical Command for 7 yrs now, and they are far more evil than any terrorist could ever dream of being. (Not all of them, and thank God for Special operations Command) I'm just too tired for another battle that has a low chance of success. What goes around, comes around. It always does.

[Held for Ransom]

http://www.forums.maxperformanceinc....d.php?t=384578

Sounds like the block came from a Fremont built vehicle.