[giddygoat]

I would take a good look at anything that was changed, you mentioned the spindles. Also I remember something about A arms that they are not all the same from Chevy,Olds,Buick for the A body. If you have a level floor (most are not but you can check with a laser, just shoot and measure) or four post lift with ramps that are level you can take some measurements on the frame, Lift the car and block the side frame rails front and rear on each side so they are parallel to the floor or ramp. Take measurements at front horns and other spots on the front frame rail to see if there is a difference side to side. Look for signs of frame damage or repair where the frame comes up by the firewall. It is possible the frame could have been pushed back and bowed in this area. 1.5 inch is a lot and you should be able to see. These frames are pretty flexable with the clip off and I would not worry about 1/4 of an inch difference here or there. You should be able to determine if it is the frame. Its always nice to have another identical car to compare measurements to. Another trick I use on builders is to have all the tires on the floor and take a string and go around all the tires at the axle level pulling it tight to check for dog tracking. Tires and rims must be the same offset with the same wheelbase for this to work and the car should be rolled into place as lowering supensions off the jack will load them. This can be used for setting alignment close enough to drive it in to a shop for a proper alignment. Again I would check the spindle, ball joints, bushings and A arms first. In my opinion if the frame was bent this bad there would be serious problems getting the front clip to line up with the doors.

[1966geeto]

Originally Posted by giddygoat

I would take a good look at anything that was changed, you mentioned the spindles. Also I remember something about A arms that they are not all the same from Chevy,Olds,Buick for the A body. If you have a level floor (most are not but you can check with a laser, just shoot and measure) or four post lift with ramps that are level you can take some measurements on the frame, Lift the car and block the side frame rails front and rear on each side so they are parallel to the floor or ramp. Take measurements at front horns and other spots on the front frame rail to see if there is a difference side to side. Look for signs of frame damage or repair where the frame comes up by the firewall. It is possible the frame could have been pushed back and bowed in this area. 1.5 inch is a lot and you should be able to see. These frames are pretty flexable with the clip off and I would not worry about 1/4 of an inch difference here or there. You should be able to determine if it is the frame. Its always nice to have another identical car to compare measurements to. Another trick I use on builders is to have all the tires on the floor and take a string and go around all the tires at the axle level pulling it tight to check for dog tracking. Tires and rims must be the same offset with the same wheelbase for this to work and the car should be rolled into place as lowering supensions off the jack will load them. This can be used for setting alignment close enough to drive it in to a shop for a proper alignment. Again I would check the spindle, ball joints, bushings and A arms first. In my opinion if the frame was bent this bad there would be serious problems getting the front clip to line up with the doors.

Lots of good ideas going to get back at it tomorrow took the weekend off needed a break.

[1966geeto]

So back from the frame shop the guy is 66 years old and been doing frame work for most of the time he has a very small one man shop with tools I have not seen in 30 years was very good to see old school techniques used .He checked everything and came up with a few problems nothing to bad as to warrant a new frame .

The frame is not diamond shaped.
It is not bent or pushed back that is why everything was measuring out there is only a 1/4 inch difference in left and rt sides which is what I kept coming up with.
The frame however is sagging at the cradle which according to him is a very common issues with these older frames as soon as he started pointing out some reference point issues I could tell the difference .
The oil pan to close to the cradle the center link to close to the oil pan little things that added up to one big thing.
The frame needs to be what he calls impresssoned this is a process ib which they tie down the lt and rt sides of the cradle and push the center of the cradle back into place from below the frame in the center of the motor. S o for now just waiting for him to get the time to do it hopefully in a couple of weeks .The shop has been at the same location for over 40 years and he is well respected in the auto community here everyone I spoke with said he's the guy only time will tell in the meantime on with the show going to start working on finishing the interior as well as detailing the eng compartment wish me luck oh yeah and robbing a bank lol price not to bad starting at 250.00 then we'll see.

[rohrt]

That is great news.

Not really understanding how a sagging frame = the fender gap you saw but it sounds like your in good hands.

What are we all going to do when people like him disappeared.

[Tempest]

I'm not sure I understand how that would cause a difference in wheelbase ?, but you sound confident in his findings, so that is good news.

please keep us posted as the work begins.

[1966geeto]

Originally Posted by rohrt

That is great news.

Not really understanding how a sagging frame = the fender gap you saw but it sounds like your in good hands.

What are we all going to do when people like him disappeared.

The way he explained it when you move the frame it changes everything if the pull is made centerline under the eng the frt horns will roll out and the fender will come into place then the front end alignment will come into play I have to trust the guy just looking at some of hi old school stuff brought back lots of memories when I used to do frt end alignment's he actually had a tool that you could only get if you went to GM frame school.

Praying it will all be over soon.

[400 4spd.]

FWIW, my 2 cents. This is just based on my experience from working in body shops since the 70's.
Based on what I've read here (glossing over it), here are some things I would consider.
Forgive me if I'm pointing out something you've covered.
First off, regarding wheelbase, when measuring at the spindle/hub you have to be certain both wheels are toed exactly straight ahead. Any deviation from dead on will make it appear as one wheel is ahead of the other.
Secondly, it's better to compare to rocker distance, not fender gap. Rockers don't move.
Third, what your last man pointed out about the cross member/cradle closing up is true. It was a common problem 40 years ago. We called it a "closed up" cross member. We had to put many GM cars on the frame machine and put pressure across the upper control arm mounting area of the frame (both sides) while jacking the center of the cross member up. This would solve CAMBER problems, not so much CASTER issues. Not saying yours doesn't suffer both, but I've included a picture of where I would be looking if I had a severe caster problem.
It's the rear mount of the lower control arm. If those are too close together it pulls the wheel back, shortening the wheel base. Below is a picture of a 67 mount.
A year ago we had a 70 Lemans in here with the same problem, but was drastic.
Anyway, good luck with it and if you need more measurements or pictures let me know. We have some GTO's in the shop with and without engines.

[giddygoat]

Glad to see you found someone that can correct this for you. Sounds like he has a handle on it, getting hard to find frame guys anymore. We were in Florida this winter for a week, was a long winter in Minnesota, wish we could have stayed longer.

[1966geeto]

Originally Posted by giddygoat

Glad to see you found someone that can correct this for you. Sounds like he has a handle on it, getting hard to find frame guys anymore. We were in Florida this winter for a week, was a long winter in Minnesota, wish we could have stayed longer.

I don't know anymore what he's is saying makes no sense to me but he's the frame guy I would think that the way he is talking about making the pull all it would do is make the eng sit higher in the car and that would throw the camber out not move the wheel forward I guess we'll see .I measured the distance between the horns on my frame and the parts car I have and it is only 1/2 inch difference makes me crazy.

[1966geeto]

Anyone have a picture or a bare frame they can take one I need a close up of the frame right behind the pass tire there is a slot in the frame I think that is where my issue is it does not look right .
It does not have the same issue on the dr side so pissed right now I can't see straight.

[Tempest]

I have a bare frame, but it is for a convert., so I think it will be different. (let me know if you want pics of that)

Have you measured using the 'X' method?

pick a spot on the rear pass side of the frame, and measure to a spot on the front driver's side. Then measure from the same points on the other sides, and see if there is a difference.

If there is a difference, then your frame is not 'square'.

[1966geeto]

Originally Posted by Tempest

I have a bare frame, but it is for a convert., so I think it will be different. (let me know if you want pics of that)

Have you measured using the 'X' method?

pick a spot on the rear pass side of the frame, and measure to a spot on the front driver's side. Then measure from the same points on the other sides, and see if there is a difference.

If there is a difference, then your frame is not 'square'.

I took it to a frame shop the guy has been doing frame work for 40 years the car measures within a 1/4 inch but the top of the rt tire is set back I can see a roll in the frame at the slot right behind the frt rt wheel does not look the same as my parts car frame.you frame is just boxed and has the xtra cross member but the cradle should be the same.

[400 4spd.]

What happened with the frame shop guy that said the cradle was the problem? Did you have him try and fix it? Just curious what the final determination was regarding alignment problems with your original frame.

[1966geeto]

I bought a 66 Lemans parts car and stripped it down to measure the frame the frt horns were exactly the same as mine I also measured the roll in the horns and it was the same on both frame .I took the frt clip off mine to measure the frame and borrowed a digital caliper from a friend the dr side was the same the pass side had a set back of 1.75 inches from the upper ball joint to my indictor marks the lower ball joints were the same so being that the eng would have to come out to make the pull and the frame heated and stretched the cost factor was about the same to replace the frame and there were no guarantees the pull would hold so here I am reconditioning another frame what a setback but almost done hope to have the epoxy primer on it today paint Wed then start the swap should take about a week .

[1966geeto]

After many hours stripping under coat smoothing welds wire wheel glass beading it's done ready to start swapping anyone want to help! anyone free beer food pool extra rooms lol..Fla vacation..

2qt's House of Kolor black epoxy primer nice stuff to work with went on like silk.
2QT's Eastwood ceramic sating extreme chassis black
2 cans Eastwood internal frame coating stuff is great very impressed

[Nickv]

That is a piece or Art!!

[1966geeto]

Thanks was allot of work and it's smoking hot here now I have to figure out how to flip it.

[Dick Boneske]

Forgive the simple comment here, but many have made the mistake of checking steering clearance with the front end jacked up and front suspension hanging. I didn't see in your postings how you were checking clearance, but it can only be checked with weight on the front end.

Tires hit the frame badly when the car is jacked up in front--a condition you would not encounter in actual driving.

[1966geeto]

Originally Posted by Dick Boneske

Forgive the simple comment here, but many have made the mistake of checking steering clearance with the front end jacked up and front suspension hanging. I didn't see in your postings how you were checking clearance, but it can only be checked with weight on the front end.

Tires hit the frame badly when the car is jacked up in front--a condition you would not encounter in actual driving.

The car was never checked with the wheels off the ground it was also checked by 2 frame shops with a digital caliper verifying the the measurement I also measured it against another frame that I have here I would have used it bt the right frt horn is rusted believe me I would not be doing this if it were absolutely necessary.

[1966geeto]

Making good progress on the new frame swap really hot out very disappointed in the quality of the muffler hangers already separating .