[Tom Vaught]

While we are the subject, explain Bill Schultz saying that he has the ORIGINAL 69 Royal V Bobcat Crystal Turquose car. If that car was a Pontiac "Mule", it should have been crushed too. He says it is the original car. Or Milt's Brown "V" car. Just wondering.

A second comment, by law a Michigan Plated vehicle must have a VIN. It is obvious from the pics of the Blue Car that the car has Michigan Plates. HJ-4471 (see this link
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...=656659&page=2

post #38.

Explain that deal Eric.

Tom Vaught

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

I am good friends with Jack "Doc" Watson and his family. While Jack is a great guy he does like to take credit for things he was never involved in.

I can relate to that deal:

A Year or so ago, at SEMA, Gale Banks met my Director of Ford Research and mentioned that he knew me. In fact he said that I was one of his students at GMI. ECO-BOOST was big at SEMA that year. The assumption being I guess that Gale taught me everything that I know about Boosting. While I have learned a lot of things from Gale either through magazine articles or the MacInnis book, web sites, etc, I can say that I have never set foot on the "Hallowed GM Ground at GMI, was never a student there, and obviously Gale was never my instructor.

Tom Vaught

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Tom,
First off neither the '69 GTO Ram Air IV 4 speed Crystal Turquoise Royal Bobcat or the GTO '69 GTO Brown Ram Air IV automatic Bobcat where "Mules" as you put it. Both car where ordered cars off the assmebly line. So they had VIN's.

Jim Wangers ordered the '69 Crystal Torquoise as a Ram Air VI 4 speed car that was to be used as his "feature" car. A car to Feature the Royal Bobcat paint scheme that was like his '68 white car. It was to show off the Ram Air IV against a well prepaired 389 Tri-power car. too. It was Bill Schultz who came up with this Ram Air V stuff. This was not a PMD one off Ram Air V. The car never had a Ram Air V motor in it. Only the banners were hung on this car and all of the other cars at the Daytona testing. Jim Wangers bought this car for himself. Then sold it to his street racer driver Frankie Ulbrick. Unfortunately there is an old saying, "A lie will make it around the world before the truth can get it's boots on".

The only Ram Air V car "REALLY TESTED" for the magzine was a '69 Firebird. It began life as a Royal Pontiac 350 HO car. The car was part of the package that was sent with every thing else related to the Royal Racing team to George Delorean's Leader Automotive. It was at Leader that the Ram Air V was put into the Bird for the magazines to test.

PMD engineering had a few Ram Air V GTOs running around engineering. Like a Black one used as a "go for". That one was crushed because it was a pilot car.

The '69 GTO Brown car came from PMD's wholesale lot. (Something that was later known as PEP car fleet) Jim Wangers bought that car from them as a used '69 GTO Ram Air IV automatic car when he left the Ad agency. Milt Schorneck now had his own shop that Jim helped set up with Brain Balish. Jim left his cars with them when he went out of town. One of Milt's friends liked Wangers' brown GTO and sold it to him. Milt convinced the guy to put in a 428 with the Ram Air V heads that Milt had.

Does this help you understand why neither car would have been crushed? I'm sure if you call Brian Ballish at White's Marine and Engine repair he will help you understand the "truth" about the '69 Crystal Turquoise car and the '69 Firebird Ram Air V Royal Race car once and for all.

As for me I am not a therorist. This what happened than. As Kieth Seymore has already pointed out many of the Executives drove the design studio cars that did not have VINS.

[Tom Vaught]

I know Brian Ballish personally. He worked for a while at Ford with a friend of mine. All that surgery sure made him a lot thinner vs the "old days". Eating mashed potatoes all the rest of your life has to really suck but compared to the other choice, glad he is still around.

Unless the pics in the magazines are of ANOTHER car, the Blue Car had Michigan Plate:. HJ-4471

Again, for many many years, by law a Michigan Plated vehicle must have a VIN. It is obvious from the pics of the Blue Car that the car has Michigan Plates.

Your "Design Center" cars, are experimental vehicles and are tagged with GM Plates. Still a Michigan plate but a "Manufacturers Plate".

HJ-4471 is a common Michigan issued 1963 plate with a green 1964 metal tag.

Tom Vaught

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Tom,
That is very nice. But the cars are gone now and Brian has not been at Ford for a few years now. You can reach Brian at White's Marine and Engine service on 9 Mile Rd near Harper. I'm sure Brian can clear up any of your questions for you on the '69 GTO's.
Jim Wangers can also be reached at his office in Ocean Side, CA. for your questions on these early cars.
Have a nice day

[SD421]

Another pic of the "cloned" 1964 Nocturne Blue GTO, owned by Donahue.
Anyone by chance know the size slick he's running??
I love the way it fills up the wheel well.
Don

[Old Man Taylor]

I can't tell you what that one was, but when mine looked like that I was running a 29.5-9:00x15.

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Old Man Taylor

I can't tell you what that one was, but when mine looked like that I was running a 29.5-9:00x15.

Thanks for the response OMT.

Don

[SD421]

Hey Tenney,
What transmission is now in the Goat? Milt says in his book that he was using a Super T-10 and blew it up or something because he had been recommended the wrong clutch when he was rqcing the car back in the late 80's.

Did Scott put the "correct" Close Ratio Muncie back in it?

Don

BTW I was able to locate the Dec 2008 article of the MuscleCar Enthusiast article on the Goat. Nice article except some of the info is incorrect such as it saying that Wangers used the Red car for the C&D Article during Christmas 1963.

Heres a link.
http://editions.amospublishing.com/M...spx?d=20081201

[Tom Vaught]

One comment for Tenney about the 4.33 rear axle under the car, that I owned for many years. The article says that the rear axle was sold in the mid 80s. That is incorrect. I had that axle under my GTO when I returned to college in the early/ mid 70s (73-76) time frame. The axle was swapped for a 2.56 "road axle" several times back and forth at my Uncle's Pontiac Dealership when i went on trips to New York in the car.

I am glad that it was reunited with the car it came from.

Tom Vaught

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by SD421

Hey Tenney,
What transmission is now in the Goat? Milt says in his book that he was using a Super T-10 and blew it up or something because he had been recommended the wrong clutch when he was rqcing the car back in the late 80's.

Did Scott put the "correct" Close Ratio Muncie back in it?

Don

BTW I was able to locate the Dec 2008 article of the MuscleCar Enthusiast article on the Goat. Nice article except some of the info is incorrect such as it saying that Wangers used the Red car for the C&D Article during Christmas 1963.

Heres a link.
http://editions.amospublishing.com/M...spx?d=20081201

Yes, Don, Scott did source an engineering-correct M-21 for the car (T-10's on the shelf).

The test, per Jim Wangers' book, was conducted Dec. 26th-29th.

Thanks for the link!

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

One comment for Tenney about the 4.33 rear axle under the car, that I owned for many years. The article says that the rear axle was sold in the mid 80s.

Don't know where that info came from, Tom.

Though perhaps Paul, who had written extensively on the car when it was converted by Milt for a match racing stint in the mid/late '80's, presumed this took place at that time when the 12-bolt/spool was swapped in?

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I am glad that it was reunited with the car it came from.

Tom Vaught

Me, too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P-IcFiztdk

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Yes, Don, Scott did source an engineering-correct M-21 for the car (T-10's on the shelf).

The test, per Jim Wangers' book, was conducted Dec. 26th-29th.

Thanks for the link!

I got it wrong in my head. It was 1963 that the testing was done not 1964.

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Me, too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P-IcFiztdk

And everyone around is wondering if its really that "old" red car that is making those sounds!! I notice that that the driver in that Jeep SUV was trying to get the heck out of the way at the end of the video. They ruined your run!!!
LOL Beautiful just beautiful!

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

One comment for Tenney about the 4.33 rear axle under the car, that I owned for many years. The article says that the rear axle was sold in the mid 80s. That is incorrect. I had that axle under my GTO when I returned to college in the early/ mid 70s (73-76) time frame. The axle was swapped for a 2.56 "road axle" several times back and forth at my Uncle's Pontiac Dealership when i went on trips to New York in the car.

I am glad that it was reunited with the car it came from.

Tom Vaught

What is the timeline on the rearend? Starts out with a 3.23 then gets the 3.90 from engineering...Bill Sherman grenades it and has it replaced in 1964 with what the 4.33's? Then Tom you buy that rearend in the 70's and ??????

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by SD421

And everyone around is wondering if its really that "old" red car that is making those sounds!! I notice that that the driver in that Jeep SUV was trying to get the heck out of the way at the end of the video. They ruined your run!!!
LOL Beautiful just beautiful!

No real room to run there, Don! Just a slow 2nd-gear merge into traffic. A brief moment w/the four extra barrels and skinny little tires is all that is.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by SD421

What is the timeline on the rearend? Starts out with a 3.23 then gets the 3.90 from engineering...Bill Sherman grenades it and has it replaced in 1964 with what the 4.33's? Then Tom you buy that rearend in the 70's and ??????

This is what I know:

1) The car was ordered with the 3.23 Gears as it went down the line, (based on the post here).

2) The 3.23 gears were removed and 3.90 Engineering gears were installed for the CD article. The testing was done in December 1963.

3) Bill Sherman keeps a work order showing the replacement of the broken 3.90 rear for the 4.33 rear, (he kept every bill and piece of paper he ever got for that car apparently). That would make sense as Mr Sherman was an experienced Royal Oak LEO).

4) Martin J. Caserio (Head of Pontiac Motors in the early 70s) had a son named Richard. I went to school with Richard and several of his Bloomfield Hills buddies in college. One of his buddies had a 64 GTO.
The 4.33 rear axle came from "the buddy" as part of a deal to do work on his GTO. He told me at the time that the rear was the "Wanger's Car" rear axle and he had purchased it from Royal Pontiac/ George DeLorean. I do not remember exactly about who the exact seller was.

5) Richard Caserio's buddy lived, like I said, in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan off of Quarton Road. His dad was a "shooter" at Chevrolet.
He only drove the car with the 4.33 gears a couple of times back and forth to college (150 miles each way) before he decided that a 2.56 gear was a better option for him. I traded work and parts for the rear.
This would have been in the 1973-74 time frame (as I was not impressed with Richard's daddy (Martin J. Caserio) when he killed the 455 SD engine).

So you have a 10 years span of the 3.90 gears being blown up, the 4.33 gear being installed, the 4.33 complete rear being removed, and then the 4.33 rear being installed in "The Buddy's" 64 GTO by Royal.

6) When "The Buddy" later found out what the 4.33 rear axle was worth "historically" he took me to court to get it back. He lost in court in that deal. (No one spends money in court on a "normal" rear axle installed under a car).

That is why I FIRMLY know that this rear was the Wanger's/ Bill Sherman 4.33 rear axle.

7) I later came to Detroit and got back together with another fellow university student named Greg Scharding, who worked for GM's Parts and Service Division as a "Factory Rep". Greg had a 1965 GTO at the time as well as a red/black 1967 LeMans. Greg S. did a lot of wrenching on the Sherman 'World Tour" drag car for Milt S. and I was able to get a lot of inside info on how the Sherman car/ engine was really built.

8) Greg S can confirm the info about the 4.33 gear and the 421 SD McKeller camshaft I had in my 64 GTO, if you ever ask him. Greg S. was pals with Chuck Roberts and Paul Z (until Paul's passing recently.

So that is the story of how I could GUARANTEE that the 4.33 rear under Tenney's GTO was the real deal.

Tom Vaught

[Tenney]

Great info, Tom, thanks! And you're right, Mr. Sherman was a good saver of stuff.

Here's an interesting one from the receipt notebook - suppose they billed the GeeTO program for work on the red car ...?

[SD421]

Tom, good details and great story!! "Nice friend" to have that would try and sue you for that rear end.

So we have the history of the "original" 4.33's established. That would leave the C&D GTO in the early 70's without a rear-end AFTER you had gotten the 4.33's.

So from the early 70's until Milt started to restore and race the GTO what was Sherman using in place of the 4.33's?

OR is that when he stored the car until Milt helped him restore it and so there was no rearend on the car all that time?

I just went to double check Milt's book and the author says that 4.33's were put under the car in the late 80's when Milt started to race the car for Sherman. I have it in my head that 4:56's were in the car from when Joe Conte owned it? I dont think he would have changed the rearend gears from 4.33's to the 4.56's. He seemed more of a collector to leave things as they are than changing them.
I think it was the Pontiac Enthusiast magazine write up that had the picture of an actually Ferrari 250 GTO and the C&D GTO on the cover. Thats where Im getting the 4.56's in my head.

Tom, Im not trying to question your story, what did the C&D GTO have as a rear-end after you got it's 4.33's & did the Sherman/Schornack era have the GTO running 4.33's or 4.56's in it??

Don